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[–] 0 points 1 day ago (14 children)

I fully agree that we need to understand how the world actually works, but I disagree that dialectics helps us understand the world in as much as it's unfalsifiable.

dialectical materialism, which necessarily advances on mechanical materialism

This is very much debatable. It's debatable because, again, dialectics are unfalsifiable, so you cannot prove either for or against them being an advance on mechanical materialism. I would argue that they're a distraction from the falsifiable mechanical materialism.

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  • [–] 5 points 23 hours ago (6 children)

    The assumptions given by mechanical materialism are incorrect, though:

    1. That the world consists of permanent and stable things or particles, with definite, fixed properties;

    2. That the particles of matter are by nature inert and no change ever happens except by the action of some external cause;

    3. That all motion, all change can be reduced to the mechanical interaction of the separate particles of matter;

    4. That each particle has its own fixed nature independent of everything else, and that the relationships between separate things are merely external relationships.

    Each of these assumptions, seeing the world as a purely mechanical system where development is impossible points us to absurdity. I'm sure the mechanical materialists would disagree with the idea that development is impossible, but this is the necessary conclusion of mechanical materialism's basis. It's why dialectics is a necessary advancement.

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  • [–] 1 point 23 hours ago (5 children)

    Many of those are a description of 18th-century mechanical materialism, which has been improved upon through falsifiability. The separation between observer and subject has been erased, more or less deleting #4, and refining the others.

    You could make the same argument against dialectical materialism, which points to everything being dynamic, by pointing to universal constants like the electric charge of the proton or the speed of light in vacuum regardless of frame of reference.

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  • [–] 6 points 23 hours ago (4 children)

    Neither of those disprove dialectical materialism, though, and I think you're confusing how dialectical materialism works. 1+1 = 2 is also not against dialectical materialism. Mechanical materialism is not devoid of merit, it was definitely an advancement on idealism. However, it is still fundamentally limited. Dialectical materialism is a framework for understanding the world. It isn't the common understanding of scientific theory as making testable predictions. You still have to go out into the world, test theory to practice, and carry knowledge forward.

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  • [–] 2 points 23 hours ago (3 children)

    Describing 18th century mechanical materialism doesn't discredit its 21st century understanding either. Again, I'm not arguing against dialectical materialism, only against the dialectic part of it. I haven't received a convincing explanation of why talking in terms of "contradictions", "permanent mutability" and "interconnectivity of everything" is superior to simply saying "try and analyze the variables that describe and influence the behaviour of systems and question everything applying a materialist outlook to reality with the goal of obtaining predictive capabilities that allow you to modify the world in your interests".

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  • [–] 5 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

    An advantage of dialectical materialist thinking over mechanical materialist thinking is that dialectical materialism provides a way to understand the way things are related to other things necessarily, not simply accidentally. This is the essential technique which allowed Marx to advance beyond Ricardo in his analysis of value, where Ricardo got stuck due to his commitment to mechanical materialism.

    The basic idea being that dialectical materialism constructs a totality of interconnected concepts which develops historically. The historical development implies a genetic relationship between concepts, which provides the dialectian with a direction when looking at empirical data. The mechanical materialist cannot help but get lost in the innumerable facts available empirically because they cannot integrate it properly into concepts, without introducing a form of eclecticism which destroys the basis of the concepts.

    Edit: I wanted to add that in the end, dialectical materialist thinking is only a manner of thought which helps us reason about the world. A point of distinction between dialectical logic and mechanical materialist logic is in its interpretation of contradiction. The mechanical materialist assumes that a contradiction can only indicate a logical error or a wrong assumption. For Marx (as a great dialectician), a contradiction (can) indicate a point where the theory is too abstract and does not correspond to reality in some manner. Luckily in his reconstruction of Capital, humankind has generally already resolved the contradiction in practice - at which point empirical data is critically important. Rather than throw away the concept of value the moment a contradiction is found, he discovers how reality has dealt with the contradiction, and yet still he is able to keep a strong concept of value containing labor.

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  • [–] 8 points 22 hours ago (1 child)

    I think you'll be interested in Materialism and Empirio-Criticism. The benefits of the dialectical approach are in that it helps us understand relational phenomena, and prevents us from analyzing things as static and unrelational. A deer is not a deer without existing in the context that formed it and the trajectory it is going, there is no such thing as a deer in a vacuum. Dialectical materialism prevents us from thinking that way.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 hours ago*

    My non-dialectical take would be:

    I want to make a predictive model of the deer and explain it. For this, I need to analyze the variables that make up and influence the deer. After analysis and criticism, I will decide, based on what I expect of my model, whether I need to include external variables or only internal. For example, in order to understand the mechanics of how the contraction of a muscle leads to the movement of a leg, I don't need to concern myself much with external variables. If, on the other hand, I need to explain the diet of a deer, looking at internal variables isn't enough, because there are very relevant external variables such as season, geographical location, etc.

    If you go dialectical and try to explain the leg mechanics of a deer in terms of contradictions and in terms of external variables, you're going to create an unnecessarily complex model that doesn't give better predictive capabilities than a simplified one, which requires more study and more effort to reach the same conclusions.

    I'll try and download that book, though a priori from the index it looks to delve deep into materialism and less into dialectics. It could be a good exercise to try and distill the dialectics from the dialectical materialism, and see exactly what I'm missing.

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  • [–] 4 points 23 hours ago (6 children)

    Since dialectical materialism is meant to be predictive, doesn't that make it falsifiable?

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  • [–] 1 point 23 hours ago (5 children)

    Christianity also attempts to explain natural phenomena and give predictive capabilities, but there's no evidence it actually does have predictive capabilities. I similarly don't think it's possible to produce evidence that dialectical materialism gives better predictive capabilities than mechanistic materialism.

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  • [–] 6 points 23 hours ago (4 children)

    I don't see why it isn't? Make predictions with dialectical materialism and with mechanistic materialism, and then see which predictions were better.

    The problem with Christianity is that the predictions it attempts to make are usually wrong.

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  • [–] 1 point 23 hours ago (3 children)

    Make predictions with dialectical materialism and with mechanistic materialism, and then see which predictions were better

    I'm in no position to quantitatively judge this by myself so, until presented with evidence that dialectical materialism objectively gives better predictive capabilities, I don't have any reason to study it.

    The problem with Christianity is that the predictions it attempts to make are usually wrong

    Well, yes, that was my point. I don't necessarily believe dialectical materialism is intrinsically better than mechanistic materialism.

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  • [–] 4 points 23 hours ago* (2 children)

    Okay, but you can study the way dialectical materialism makes falsifiable claims, because it claims to be predictive. Whether you feel like studying it or not is unrelated to the original claim.

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  • [–] 1 point 23 hours ago (1 child)

    My point is that I don't think there's existing evidence as of today of it being better, so I would discard it until then as it's a more complex abstraction from simpler materialism

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  • [–] 5 points 23 hours ago

    That's a different point. Your original point was that it was unfalsifiable, but since it's predictive and used in historical analysis it plainly isn't. It makes claims about the movement of history and we can check them against the actual movement of history; the existing evidence would be the already existing historical record.

    I don't really know how you'd use simple materialism to predict most historical events.

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