United States | News &amp; Politics

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[–] supcoop -3 points 1 week ago (8 children)

I don't disagree with the criticism. The only thing i dislike is the implication to that "there are no good choices" and we should just give up. That's how the facists win. I also thought the meme was dumb. But tbh I was drunk. I am also new to this platform, so sorry if I fucked up the rules. It still amazed that anyone even read a comment from a noob and took the time to reply.

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[–] Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online 7 points 1 week ago

I don't think anyone is saying there are no good choices and to just give up.

If you can't talk about what's wrong, you can't fix it.

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[–] QuietCupcake@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago (6 children)

I want to start this off by saying I appreciate that you seem to be open to correction and that you respect the community and its rules. 99.9% of the time when someone, especially from another instance, suddenly appears here to defend Democrats or the false dichotomy binary system of US politics, they are trolls commenting in bad faith and don't deserve anything less than comment removal. If you genuinely do not fall into that category, then there are plenty of people here who are more than happy to discuss any of this with you, noob-ness not being a factor at all.

That said, I think you do have some brainworms regarding electoralism that you would do well to excise. Anyone who grew up in western (especially US) "culture" is going to have some brainworms, as it's unavoidable when you're saturated by propaganda from birth as USians are. I just want to be clear that saying you have brainworms is not an insult to your character. What does speak to the health of a person's character is whether or not they're willing to recognize, examine, and rectify those brainworms.

The only thing i dislike is the implication to that "there are no good choices" and we should just give up

A few things to unpack here. First of all, no one is saying there are no good choices and definitely no one is saying "we should just give up." You are the one who seems to have that sort of defeatist attitude (though it looks like you're struggling to come to terms with that) when you say things like "Most of humanity probably deserves to die off," which is an ecofascist-aligning position. And even "every year gets worse. Every country gets worse," is a very defeatist (and incorrect) thing to say, as it totally disregards the gigantic strides that socialist countries have made towards the betterment of humankind.

More specifically on the Democrats and "no good choices" thing, we would say that Democrats are not a good choice and literally no better of a choice than a Republican because both of those parties serve the interests of the ruling class, they are both parts of the same machine whose purpose is to suppress the working class while protecting and serving capital. They have different roles to play in that machine (see the ratchet effect) so they are not identical, but expecting either of them to actually help you or be beneficial to you is folly. Unfortunately, due to those electoralist brainworms, a lot of people who otherwise would be allies in the struggle for a better world are misled into thinking that voting for Democrats is a means to improvement when they are not. They aren't even a "lesser evil" that will help stymie the descent into fascism. They are not a lesser evil, the are part of the exact same evil machine, and they won't stop fascism because their role is literally to impede leftward political movement as a bulwark for the right. Democrats aid fascism, they do not stand in its way.

Voting within a bourgeois system, especially at the federal level, is generally useless, yes. We can get into that if you want (such as how the tremendous political energy spent on promoting bourgois electoral candidates saps all the energy that could have been spent on actually useful organizing, as well as making people think they've "done their civic duty" by voting, excusing and dismissing them from doing what actually needs to be done for progress to happen), but even for those who are still unwilling to accept that fact, it doesn't mean "there are no choices" because we still have for example PSL candidates, who aren't running with an expectation to win, but to expose more people to socialist thought. In short, there are good choices, but voting for Democrats is not one of them. And when you defend or support Democrats, not only are you not helping, you are aiding the fascist side. When we criticize Democrats specifically it is usually because so many people have been fooled into thinking Democrats are on the left, that Democrats represent resistance to fascism.

Finally, what you said about how we are "blaming everyone else" is ridiculous. We are very clearly "blaming" the ruling class. But it's not even about "blame" which is a very idealist (and incorrect) framing. We correctly identify capitalism as a system (and imperialism on a global scale) as being the source of these problems and that is what we are struggling against, including Democrats who are just another facet of the ruling class enforcing its will over the rest of humanity.

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[–] Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online 3 points 1 week ago (1 child)

The comment was removed because it contained a slur. I didn't think that means someone is a "bad person" and needs to be banished. We are all flawed individuals. I am not saying this to shame the commenter either. I feel compelled to reply because readers might assume the comment was removed based on the moderators disagreement with this person's stance when the reason was much less subjective.

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[–] QuietCupcake@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago

I hear you, and thank you for pointing that out. I didn't recall what rule 1 was, so I wasn't entirely sure what the reasoning for the removal was (though I think it would have been fair to remove that first comment even if it hadn't contained a slur, personally).

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[–] supcoop -1 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I admit I got the wrong impression from you guys initially. The vitriol is all "fuck Democrats", but you should follow up with "go socialism" to get the message out. From the outside looking in, it looked like more of the voter suppression campaigns that I see everywhere else. I see too many young people give up on voting because they think their single vote doesn't matter. But they need to understand democracy is about everyone voting as a whole.

It's true I have become a but of a fatalist lately which really make me sad about the future generations. I actually shed my brainworms decades ago. I have no delusions about the US political system. It is an oligarchy. And yes money/greed is to blame. I am 100% for socialism. Most people here who are not brainwashed agree with socialist policies. I support the socialist candidates in my area. And they are running under the Democratic party. But the voter suppression is real. I live in a liberal district in the south US. The ruling party here recently divided up (gerrymandered) my district to dilute the votes. Cheating to win is now openly acceptable. It makes me sick.

Is the US perfect? Fuck no. Does the US political system suck? Absolutely. Is the Democratic party going to make it better? Probably not anytime soon. But the average Republican is 100x worse than the worst Democrat. Do you live in a perfect society? If so, please let me know. I would love to visit.

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[–] QuietCupcake@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

The vitriol is all "fuck Democrats", but you should follow up with "go socialism" to get the message out.

If lemmy.ml did nothing but criticize Democrats, I might agree with you, but that simply isn't the case. There are many many posts and comments about the sheer necessity of socialism, from light-hearted one-liners to deep analysis in high detail (just check out u/Cowbee comments if you have any doubt). There is no need for every meme and shitpost to wax poetic about the benefits of socialism, especially when the vast majority of users here are already fully on board with that concept. However, one of the biggest sticking points for people who like to consider themselves as being "on the left," is their insistence that Democrats need to be supported. But as I hope I made clear in my previous comment, supporting democrats is part of the problem and absolutely not part of the solution. Because of the prevalence of this misconception, it's worth driving home, repeatedly, that Democrats are part of and serve the same fascist machine, which is exactly what the OP was doing, and what got you upset enough to post an extremely hostile comment (that included an ableist slur, which is why it was removed a u/Arcanepotato informed me).

From the outside looking in, it looked like more of the voter suppression campaigns that I see everywhere else.

If pointing out the complicity of Democrats in funding fascist kidnapping squads looks to you like "voter suppression campaign," I don't know what to tell you. From here looking in at your comments, it looks like cognitive dissonance - a struggle to reconcile your belief in Democrats as a force for good, when the data shows they are really no better than Republicans on this, their only "opposition" to ICE being purely performative for the sake of scoring political points at opportune moments.

I see too many young people give up on voting because they think their single vote doesn't matter.

They are correct, their vote doesn't matter. It sucks, but it's true. Especially if they live in a non-swing state as the vast majority of the population does. This is by design, it is intentional, but the electoral college is just one of the ways the ruling class has set up a system such that they can never actually be challenged. But again, those young people are right about their vote not mattering and they would do well not to waste their energy on it if they are willing to spend that energy doing something more effective, like organizing and agitating.

But they need to understand democracy is about everyone voting as a whole.

If it were, the US would have compulsory voting (as some countries, even other "liberal democracies," do), and the electoral college would have been abolished a couple hundred years ago. If you want to hold on to the idea of every vote mattering and it being something that everyone must participate in together, then you need to recognize those things are both anathema to the US system, and let go of the belief that the US is (or ever was) a "democracy" in any meaningful sense of the word.

It's true I have become a but of a fatalist lately which really make me sad about the future generations.

I can certainly identify with that, and I do genuinely empathize. What is possibly the best remedy for that fatalism and defeatism is to get out there and get organized with other actual socialists (not Democrats), or to start helping to improve the lives of people in your community. Reading theory can also have a very positive effect on a person's outlook as well because it provides a framework to understand, scientifically, how and why things are as they are. Those are just some suggestions for ways of potentially easing that unwanted sense of fatalism (and the depression that comes along with it, as it does for me anyway), but only if you are interested, it is not intended as pressure or even a magic bullet, but getting involved in a process of actually working towards a future where everyone can live with dignity does really tend to have a dramatic effect on a lot of people.

I actually shed my brainworms decades ago.

If you were able to get rid of a bunch a while back, good, congratulations (I say that sincerely). But I think you're mistaken in believing you got them all. Based on your initial comment that got removed as well as following comments, it seems very apparent to me that you have at laest a few more to go. Not just worms regarding your fallacious beliefs about the sanctity of Democrats, but also... c'mon, you included an ableist slur in that first comment. That's practically a brainworm sticking out your ear and waving hi. I'll say it again, informing someone of their brainworm infestation is not an insult or put-down, everyone raised in a capitalist society is going to have brainworms and some worms are deeper and more insidious than others. I'd be shocked if somehow I didn't still have some lurking around in dark corners of my own skull, but I do try to shine a light on them and clean them out if spotted. A rule of thumb: when someone says they already shed all of theirs, that's a very strong indication that they probably have a lot more brainworms in there than they realize.

I have no delusions about the US political system.

I disagree. You apparently believe that voting is a valid means to fix the deep systemic problems that are the cause of all the misery we see around us and the encroaching fascism. It will not. You believe that support for the Democrats will help to improve things in the direction you want to see. It will not. You don't seem to recognize that the US is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, which nullifies what little democracy there is in the US. You seem to think it is a bad thing to tell people that the Democrats should not be supported, even while those Democrats actively, enthusiastically participate in genocide and refuse to do even the pittance of things they say they'll do as lip service to minorities. I guarantee you still have delusions about the US political system. You may recognize that it is quite bad, but I would bet (and I could be wrong here) you think that it used to be good and functional, but it has only recently become corrupt and abused. It was always corrupt. It is not being abused, it is functioning as intended from the start.

It is an oligarchy. And yes money/greed is to blame.

It is essentially, roughly speaking an oligarchy, yes. It always has been though, and always must be if capitalism is its economic system. But you think voting is going to undo the fact it is an oligarchy? It won't. It can't. As for money, money itself is just a mediator, a stand-in we use to represent value. It is the hoarding of wealth (money is the most universal way of accumulating and hoarding value, but not the only way) and I would agree that the hoarding of it is a focal point of the problem, and I would also agree that greed is at the heart of it in terms of the psychological motivations of the ruling class. But the psychological motivations are always secondary to actual material conditions, but to get into that would be to go on a tangent. Anyway, what is to be "blamed," the thing that truly is the root of these problems, is the system our society is subject to, it's capitalism. Greed may always exist to some degree in humanity, just as compassion, empathy, and even altruism will always exist to some degree in humanity. But people will adapt to the system they live under, and capitalism is one that rewards greed. It punishes compassion and cooperation while ensuring the greediest and the most cut-throat individuals rise to the top. Capitalism is an environment that selects for the worst traits in people, and people best able to foster and demonstrate those worst traits are the ones who become the most successful within that system (the material conditions I mentioned a second ago). In that sense, it really is capitalism that is to "blame." And I put the word blame in quotes because I don't think it's the most helpful way to frame things. It doesn't even have to be about "blame" per se, it should be about identifying what is actually happening and why, then identifying the problem and who it is a problem for since capitalism is obviously not a problem for, among others, the billionaires who have legally stolen vast oceans of wealth that belong to the people.

I am 100% for socialism. Most people here who are not brainwashed agree with socialist policies.

Glad to hear it, and I am in complete agreement on this one. However I suspect we may be operating on different definitions of socialism. If you just mean social democracy ("the Nordic model" cough), I would not call that socialism. The means of production in the hands of the working class is what I mean by socialism.

I ran into the character limit and I'm only half way done. lol. Continued in a reply:

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[–] QuietCupcake@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago

I support the socialist candidates in my area. And they are running under the Democratic party.

There is something to be said for socialists who attempt to use the Democratic party as an inroads into the system, and some have had varying degree of success but never much. Unfortunately, in nearly every case where they finally attain some proximity to the levers of power, they either have no choice but to change and become milquetoast reformists (who will not actually improve anything) and possibly end up being just as bad as the establishment Democrats they promised they would never be like (see: AOC) or they will reveal themselves to be opportunists who used the movement without any real intent to follow through. See Mamdani's Zionism. They need to be beholden to a principled communist party, but of course they never are. It is fine and good to support socialist candidates. But the point of doing so should be to teach people about socialism and teach people about the fundamental inability of elected officials to bring about socialism within a system that is literally built around preventing exactly that from ever happening. There is a lot more to be said about this, and if you do want to learn more about Marxist-Leninist analysis about these things, I'd encourage you to ask here and on hexbear or lemmygrad.

But the voter suppression is real. I live in a liberal district in the south US.

Indeed. Just because they serve the same masters and are cogs in the same machine does not mean they don't have their own aspirations for wealth and power (and power that will exponentiate their wealth). And there are different degrees to how much they want to suppress the working class and how extreme they want to be, for example, in using racism (one of their greatest tools to divide the working class). Republicans are easily worse in this regard, but Democrats you will find, will always have an excuse for not using their power to fix the things that Republicans did while in office. A great example (but just one of so so many) is the OP image that you got so mad at! Democrats, and even the "left wing of the Democrats," supposed "socialists" like AOC made a show of crying at a fence with children in cages on the other side, butt did jack shit to actually help them, and instead votes right along with the other establishment dems and the Republicans for more funding to the racist and fascist capitalism-enforcers, and more money and aid to the settler-colonial state Entity committing an open genocide.

The ruling party here recently divided up (gerrymandered) my district to dilute the votes. Cheating to win is now openly acceptable. It makes me sick.

Gerrymandering has been happening for decades by both parties. (And I want to be clear, when I say ruling class, I mean the class of people who "own" all the wealth, I am not talking about a political party. I'm not saying you thought that's what I meant, but in case you did, because it's odd to call either the Dems or the Repubs the "ruling party" - but that's beside the point I'm making here). They have always carved out districts in whatever ways best suited them at the time. It was extensively used (by Democrats!) to sequester and basically disenfranchise predominantly black districts and regions. It is sick. And it is yet another tool in their massive toolbox for ensuring they remain in power regardless of the wishes of voters. It is sickening, for sure. But it's not new and it will never stop, so long as we live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

Is the Democratic party going to make it better? Probably not anytime soon. But the average Republican is 100x worse than the worst Democrat.

I'm with you on the first part, for sure. But about the average Republican being 100x worse than the worst Democrat... Are they really? Why did you get mad at the OP image, then? It's true. Democrats are just as enthusiastic about breaking up families and deporting people, they just say the right words to make some people think they are against what those mean ol Republicans do! Full support of and active participation in genocide is literally bipartisan. Do you think the kids being murdered by US tech and bombs dropped from planes paid for by the US thought that the Democrats were 100 times better when they were doing it? (And Democrats are still overwhelmingly voting in support of it even when a Republican is ~~on the throne~~ in the white house, though it was a Democrat in the white house when the full on phase of that genocide started). From the perspective of most of the world who are exploited by the US, Democrats are no different than Republicans, it is the US state as a unit and all the citizens who support it, regardless of whether they vote for donkeys or elephants, who are responsible for their immiseration.

Do you live in a perfect society? If so, please let me know. I would love to visit.

Of course not. No one can when the world is dominated by capitalism and imperialism. I'm setting aside the fact that no society will ever be perfect, but I will take that to mean a much better society where everyone is provided with everything necessary to lead a healthy and fulfilling life. That is what we, as anticapitalist leftists (anarchists as well as MLs), are fighting for. Democrats are not fighting for that. Democrats literally fight to prevent that. The Democratic party is a bourgeois party, and as such it is by definition an enemy to those who seek to build a truly just society like the one you and I both want, and they have proven this over and over and over.

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[–] supcoop 1 point 1 week ago

I agree that Democrats have done a lot of harm, and that voting alone will not fix everything. I also think organizing and helping people locally matters. But I don’t agree that every election result is the same, or that voting for a Democrat means you support everything Democrats do. I don’t think we’re going to agree, so I’m out. Thanks for taking the time to reply.