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[+] -28 points 22 hours ago (32 children)

"Israel is committing genocide" is not relevant to a charge of criminal damage. English law does not recognise "I was protesting something grievously wrong" as a general defence, and nor should it - so trying to lead the jury to be sympathetic because they agree with your message instead of finding according to the law would indeed be unjust.

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  • [–] 25 points 17 hours ago (4 children)

    nor should it

    Hard disagree there. How to create such a system is a separate question though, that much I will grant.

    would indeed be unjust

    It wouldn’t be “correct” in the application of the law. That wouldn’t make it unjust necessarily. Law is not the same as justice, it’s just our best effort.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 hours ago (1 child)

    Law in capitalist countries is not an effort towards justice, it is an effort towards protecting private property and the rights of capitalists.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 hours ago

    The law, incidentally, is also what makes it illegal for said capitalists to kill you for example. Why do you think they always want their industries deregulated, E.g when it comes to safety regulations.

    Doesn't get much better under communism either since party elites are allowed to do anything they want and enrich themselves in the process.

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  • [+] -9 points 17 hours ago (1 child)

    But it is our best effort. I don't think even an abstract concept of justice is served by taking into account political motivation for your actions unless you apply the principle blindly. Do you think someone spraying right-wing slogans like "deport all migrants" or "traitors" or just "fuck you" on RNLI buildings should be off the hook because they think there's an existential threat to the country from a trickle of refugees? Do you think they should be allowed to bring up those beliefs in court?

    Besides assigning consequences to bad actions, justice must in the first instance be fair. I see no fair way to privilege motivations that I sympathise with (anti-Israeli-genocide) but not ones that I find detestable (anti-immigrant).

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  • [–] 9 points 17 hours ago (23 children)
  • [+] -6 points 16 hours ago (22 children)

    To determine facts. For them to be able to do that, they need to not be subjected to irrelevant emotional arguments.

    Throughout these comments I've been asking what people think if the slogan had instead been "deport all immigrants" - do you have a view on whether a jury should hear a defendant's motivation for spraying something like that?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 hour ago

    That's a little bit misleading, they're supposed to determine the facts based on the evidence, then provide a verdict.

    When giving a verdict they can take into account the severity of the penalty and the circumstances of the crime.

    I think a jury should hear the motivation for the defendant's actions: as a counterexample consider a defendant on trial for breaking their parole (under freedom of movement), but who did so to rescue people from a burning building. A jury would have to hear the motivation to take this into account.

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  • [–] 8 points 12 hours ago (4 children)

    Why would you need a jury to determine facts?

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  • [+] -6 points 11 hours ago (3 children)

    I don't have the inclination to quote standard legal theory at you, it's not like I'm on crackpot territory here

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  • [–] 6 points 15 hours ago (10 children)
  • [–] -3 points 15 hours ago (9 children)

    Ok. I don't, that sounds like it would lead to a lot of bad outcomes as well as giving an opportunity for terrible people to grandstand and waste time.

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  • [–] 5 points 15 hours ago (8 children)

    More of a strict letter of the law than a spirit of the law kinda guy, eh?

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  • [–] 0 points 15 hours ago (7 children)

    There's nothing in the spirit of the law that is supposed to allow people to air their grievances in court, so no. What I'm against is adding that to the spirit of the law.

    And the reason is because I think there's no fair way to do it that doesn't open the way for awful people to abuse it. And what I definitely am for is fairness.

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  • [–] 3 points 15 hours ago (6 children)

    The entire concept of the law is for people to air their grievances in court, instead of airing out each other's skulls. Do you think motivation is irrelevant to crime?

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  • [–] -1 points 15 hours ago (5 children)

    The prosecution is airing its grievances, not the defence. And motivation matters in some circumstances but this this isn't one of them. Unless you want to implement a fair principle for everyone, which I think would do more harm than good.

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  • [–] 4 points 15 hours ago (4 children)

    Motivation absolutely matters in all circumstances.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 hours ago (3 children)

    Uhuh. Well, you're very confident, yet I'm for some reason unconvinced by your detailed argument...

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  • [–] 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (2 children)

    Can you name a single crime where the offense is not either enchanted or mitigated by motivation?

    I can't.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 hours ago (1 child)

    Most motivations are irrelevant to most crimes.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 hours ago

    Really? Then why are voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter 1, manslaughter 2, manslaughter 3, murder 1, and murder 2 all separate crimes, when (without motivation) the crime is just killing someone you weren't supposed to kill?

    Kinda sounds like all those distinctions can be collapsed down to murder, right?

    Why have varying sentences for crimes?

    Matter of fact, why is mens rea even taught in law school?

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  • [–] 5 points 15 hours ago (3 children)
  • [–] -4 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

    Ah ok, so it's easy - just allow all good things in the courtroom but ban the bad ones. I wish I'd thought of that. I must be a fucking moron I guess.

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  • [–] 13 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

    University of Birmingham disagrees: https://academic.oup.com/ojls/article/45/2/329/8078322?login=false they say that it should be a legal defence.

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