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[+] -6 points 14 hours ago (21 children)

To determine facts. For them to be able to do that, they need to not be subjected to irrelevant emotional arguments.

Throughout these comments I've been asking what people think if the slogan had instead been "deport all immigrants" - do you have a view on whether a jury should hear a defendant's motivation for spraying something like that?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 minutes ago

    That's a little bit misleading, they're supposed to determine the facts based on the evidence, then provide a verdict.

    When giving a verdict they can take into account the severity of the penalty and the circumstances of the crime.

    I think a jury should hear the motivation for the defendant's actions: as a counterexample consider a defendant on trial for breaking their parole (under freedom of movement), but who did so to rescue people from a burning building. A jury would have to hear the motivation to take this into account.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 hours ago (3 children)

    Why would you need a jury to determine facts?

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  • [+] -6 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

    I don't have the inclination to quote standard legal theory at you, it's not like I'm on crackpot territory here

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  • [–] 6 points 13 hours ago (10 children)
  • [–] -4 points 13 hours ago (9 children)

    Ok. I don't, that sounds like it would lead to a lot of bad outcomes as well as giving an opportunity for terrible people to grandstand and waste time.

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  • [–] 5 points 13 hours ago (8 children)

    More of a strict letter of the law than a spirit of the law kinda guy, eh?

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  • [–] -1 points 13 hours ago (7 children)

    There's nothing in the spirit of the law that is supposed to allow people to air their grievances in court, so no. What I'm against is adding that to the spirit of the law.

    And the reason is because I think there's no fair way to do it that doesn't open the way for awful people to abuse it. And what I definitely am for is fairness.

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  • [–] 3 points 13 hours ago (6 children)

    The entire concept of the law is for people to air their grievances in court, instead of airing out each other's skulls. Do you think motivation is irrelevant to crime?

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  • [–] -1 points 13 hours ago (5 children)

    The prosecution is airing its grievances, not the defence. And motivation matters in some circumstances but this this isn't one of them. Unless you want to implement a fair principle for everyone, which I think would do more harm than good.

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  • [–] 4 points 13 hours ago (4 children)

    Motivation absolutely matters in all circumstances.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 hours ago (3 children)

    Uhuh. Well, you're very confident, yet I'm for some reason unconvinced by your detailed argument...

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  • [–] 2 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (2 children)

    Can you name a single crime where the offense is not either enchanted or mitigated by motivation?

    I can't.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 hours ago (1 child)

    Most motivations are irrelevant to most crimes.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 hour ago

    Really? Then why are voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter 1, manslaughter 2, manslaughter 3, murder 1, and murder 2 all separate crimes, when (without motivation) the crime is just killing someone you weren't supposed to kill?

    Kinda sounds like all those distinctions can be collapsed down to murder, right?

    Why have varying sentences for crimes?

    Matter of fact, why is mens rea even taught in law school?

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  • [–] 5 points 13 hours ago (3 children)
  • [–] -4 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

    Ah ok, so it's easy - just allow all good things in the courtroom but ban the bad ones. I wish I'd thought of that. I must be a fucking moron I guess.

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