Jews are not systemically oppressed anymore but clearly certain reactionaries sure do want them to be.

Collective punishment is always wrong. You can't just make your whole ideology out of fuckinslammer memes or you turn into this person.

Parenti fucking rolling in his grave rn. You do not get to invoke a foundational modern marxist while doing the opposite of material analysis.

Would you apply the same logic to Christians? Arguably Christians have done far more harm. Or are you defining Jews as an ethnicity? How is that better? Is there something genetic or is it religious?

These may seem like silly semantic differences but they are actually important and the people that make either argument are wrong for the same reason: Collective punishment and collective guilt is always reactionary.

Ironically some of these same people would say I am doing Jewish exceptionalism but are they not doing the same thing claiming this is an exceptionally Jewish form of fascism.

I do not believe such distinctions are productive but rather only serve to excuse one's own participation in similar relations. By invoking some sort of Jewish exceptionalism you are only absolving yourself of guilt and complicity. By definition when you claim there is some sort of Jewish exceptionalism at play you are implying they are a special uniquely bad group apart from the international white supremacist project that enables and requires the existence of Israel.

You claim to be denouncing special treatment of Jewish persecution and overcorrect into actual Nazism. Or to be more accurate I guess Strasserism.

I no longer care if people want to call me a zionist for pointing this out. You are just embarassed white supremacists trying to offload your crimes onto Israel, there is nothing Israel has done that the rest of the west has not done tenfold, all are complicit and blaming it on Jews is just Nazi shit. I will fight to the death for the Palestinian people but I will not tolerate any single person implying collective guilt. This goes for everyone, white, black arab, persian, etc.

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[–] 29 points 3 days ago* (1 child)

statistically not that many, especially when your definition of anti-zionism is actually anti-israel rather than being a squishy two state, one israel equal rights situation. when it comes to orgs self-IDing as Jewish, the vast majority are explicitly zionist

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  • [–] 9 points 3 days ago (1 child)

    There's a long history of discourse within Judaic studies, history, sociology, and so on, on the multi-level way Jewishness manifests as a social role and identity. It can be a Religion, Ethnicity, A nation (Zionism broadly, as in the Jews need a homeland, or more narrowly---that homeland must be located in current Palestine), or some have even argued a race.

    I'm not going to comment on the validity of all these things, simply remark that it is complicated to at least some degree. There is a long cultural tradition of secular jews wondering where they fit into the picture given the kinds of contradictions that arise from the above overlapping but non-synonymous senses of identity. A Jew may self-identify as culturally a Jew, but not be practicing the faith. They will attend holidays and engage in rituals as a cultural practice, not an explicitly religious one. By way of analogy, many Americans and Europeans celebrate Christmas as a cultural practice, not because they are devout christians. Alternatively, a person may not identify as a Jew themselves, but because of their ancestry or whatever they may be ascribed Jewishness---much like poc are when they have mixed parents---as a social identity imposed on them by outside society. Much like the socially constructed fact of race in general, this conception could be considered a race, but that is imposed from the outside rather than in. I'd argue if Jews start identifying as a race themselves that is a reactionary tendency, as any 'race' conception is a reactionary concept so far as I'm concerned.

    Most orgs self-identifying as Jewish are RELIGIOUS orgs. They're one of the few civil institutions that can survive and replicate themselves under the grinding erosion of capitalism. Only the most devout stay involved because they are willing to live, practice, and participate in the group despite the social and material costs of doing so. Go figure, zealots are willing to commit to the bit, and that bit tends to be reactionary. Jews who are culturally Jewish but not religious likely participate at the fringes in this sense; that is their community and family whether they like it or not. However, they almost definitionally won't be rising to positions of power because they are themselves marginalized within their own community.

    This is honestly a sad phenomenon where people who by all rights should be able to consider themselves culturally Jewish are denied their own identity by a hostile and reactionary in-group trying to impose conformity from within, but they are ALSO put upon by conflation like you seem to be doing in your comment. We are encouraged to simply not be Jews---which is not so simple---for guilt by association.

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  • [–] 20 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    i’m really not sure what conflation you’re talking about nor how you took “all antizionist jews should renounce their judaism” from my comment

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  • [–] 7 points 2 days ago* (1 child)

    That's the pressure created by the above set of facts. Internally, Non-zionist Jews are actively being frozen out as 'bad jews' from the Zionist and reactionary domination right now of Jewish faith-based organizations.

    Now, those rightfully critical of that phenomenon, but who are non-jews themselves without the nuanced or lived experience necessary to understand these internal contradictions, are trying to say there's some innate problem to Judaism that is creating the conditions. One can easily infer it would be undesirable to be Jewish if they were to genuinely believe that.

    Those of us who have been, and continue to be, trying to meaningfully distinguish between the two and protect Judaism as a multi-domain concept that has room for more than Zionism, are catching the pressure from both sides.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    trying to say there's some innate problem to Judaism

    thankfully i never claimed this, so no need for the inference

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  • [–] 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 child)

    Your response to Dort_Owl was upholding a certain statistical interpretation, one that says 'not that many' are anti-zionist. I don't think that kind of survey captures the broad and complicated way Judaism manifests as a social identity. Many of the anti-zionist Jews are, at this point, being called non-jews by the orgs you and I both critique. Whether they were secular or religious, they are going to be isolated and marginalized now more than ever. I'm friends with many anti-zionist Jews, and most of them are declining to identify as Jewish now not because they think they are not Jewish, but because it will cause them to be lumped in as guilt by association. Such a phenomenon will skew the figures from statistical surveys like this, as well as perception more generally.

    I think we should be celebrating anti-zionist Jews and saying, "Yes, you CAN be Jewish and anti-zionist, actually," rather than lending support to the narrative that to be Jewish is, heuristically speaking or otherwise, to be Zionist. I support a more expansive conception of the situation, not a reductive one---which I take you to be endorsing with its entailments.

    If you are not endorsing this reduction then so be it, hopefully my writing on the disentanglement of the complicated concept is enlightening to others all the same.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    Ok, but 10% is still a surprisingly small number

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  • [–] 8 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    With tens of billions of dollars spent directly on hijacking every Jewish institution for decades with the continuous backing of the entire western media apparatus and literal espionage and sabotage done against antizionist Jewish activists domestically, I don't think it's that surprising that it's a small number, though I am pretty sure in America it is higher than 10%.

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