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[–] 6 points 2 weeks ago (30 children)

Have you ever heard a pro-lifer use "the baby will feel pain when you kill it" as their reason and not "the baby will die when you kill it"?

That's like a vegan who is on board with the meat industry as long as the cow is killed quickly.

If they exist at all, they're an outlier. This comic makes no sense lol

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  • [–] 14 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

    Have you ever heard a pro-lifer use "the baby will feel pain when you kill it"

    Yes. I've heard many of them talk about the use of a suction extraction device, and how it painfully rips the "baby" apart, limb by limb.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

    But....you truncated my comment so you could answer a question I didn't ask lol

    The reason they care isn't because of the pain the fetus feels. They care because the fetus dies.

    This really isn't a stretch! Go ahead and ask them if they'd be ok with abortion if the fetus didn't suffer..

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

    This isn't exclusive to the abortion topic, but a lot of people hate the opposing political view so much they refuse to even think of their opponent's point of view.

    Ironically, it makes fighting those views harder because none of your arguments address their actual points.

    Sun Tzu, "Know your enemy."

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (2 children)

    It is painfully obvious when someone formed their opinion from memes alone. They get all their news from screenshots on social media and have a skewed view of the world.

    When it comes to politics, I do believe the right is significantly worse about it but my side loves spreading misinformation if it affirms their beliefs, too.

    That's why you'll sometimes find me in the comments sounding like a conservative when I call someone out for framing something poorly. It just makes all of us look stupid. We don't need misinformation to make them look bad so stick to the facts and, like you said, address their actual points.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    Yeah I'm still rolling my eyes at a ban I got once for explaining what MAGAs believe (because I know MAGAs very well), but the banner didn't care to realize that it wasn't coming from my personal beliefs.

    No political affiliation is above tribalism, echo chambers, and failing to think critically. Some people just stumble into morally correct stances by accident.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    "You are not immune to propaganda"

    If your only exposure is through memes in your social media bubble, you're going to assume that the worst of the worst is a true representation of the whole

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  • [–] 7 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

    There is more people who are OK with eating meat but dislike industrial farming that actual vegans. Your analogy makes less sense

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (3 children)

    That's basically the default view so yeah, of course it's more common. This comic is showing a conservative extremist going off about the fetus feeling pain.

    Conservatives are pro-LIFE, not anti-pain. They don't give a shit if the fetus has a genetic defect that will lead to a year of suffering before death, that baby's getting born.

    It's not like they're ok with abortion if it's painless. Come on lol

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

    They are not even pro life, they're against women's autonomy, they're perfectly happy letting a woman and a fetus die as long as she doesn't receive healthcare she needs.
    But to the point, incredibly common anti-abortion "argument" is this appeal to emotions, they lie that fetus has developed senses and actually wants to live and all that. All this shit isn't rational, and yet very common. You'll find a significant number of people who will use this "but it's not a fetus, it's a person with feeling, dreams, job, mortgage, and depression already", like it's an argument, but wouldn't answer yes to your question to "will it be ok if it didn't have this things?".

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    I agree that none of it rational. I guess my point was more that "you're killing the baby" is the weapon and "they are tortured in the process" is in the pile of ammo.

    Like if I'm mad at you for killing someone, I'm gonna say "you're a psychopath for murdering someone" not "you're a psychopath for shooting them in the stomach"

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    I personally convinced more than one anti-abortion person out of their anti-abortion position, by definitively showing them that at the time abortion is performed, the fetus not yet posses the ability to feel. Those people were convinced into their anti-abortion position by those lying pictures of doctors going up there with sharp instruments and killing fully formed person that screams for help, and when discovered that it's not the case, abandoned their stance.
    So it's a point of contention for at least someone, I know that.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    I think you are being overly literal; they are concerned with harm to a person that they suppose the fetus embodies. In the context of a four panel comic, it's totally okay to condense that to "hurt".

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  • [–] -1 points 2 weeks ago*

    They also didn't use "hurt," though, they used "feel." This is actually a strawman (an actual strawman, not just "an argument I don't like") for a group that has so many insane, hyperbolic rationalizations for their values; the comic is not very good.

    It's also just like, not very critical. Circumcision is of course not as serious as murder to a person who believes abortion is murder, and any potential contradictions between those two values is remedied by them both being purportedly prescribed by their holy text. Yeah sure, they're wrong about both of these things, but erasing why and then making a hyperbolic comparison that does not exist for exactly that reason is a strawman. There's so much other shit to make fun of these people for.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (13 children)

    yes, pro-lifers use the "abortion mutilates babies" argument all the time

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  • [–] -2 points 2 weeks ago (12 children)

    And vegans say "animals are tortured in factory farms" but that's not the reason they don't eat meat

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  • [–] -2 points 1 week ago (11 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    It's not. Even if factory farming did not exist, veganism still opposes animal exploitation and vegans would not consume animal products.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    it's not the only reason

    y'all are acting like there's a single master reason. there can be multiple.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children)

    I think the problem is you are using an informal, folk definition of "a vegan" while we are talking about the actual moral philosophy called "veganism".

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    vegans say "animals are tortured in factory farms" but that's not the reason they don't eat meat

    and I know vegans who are vegan for exactly that reason, above any other

    but keep on arguing the wrong point, I guess

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

    You just reiterated my point. You are not talking about veganism. I'm not sure you even understand what it is. Veganism is an entire moral philosophy. I am sure there are lots of vegans that were moved to adopt veganism because of factory farming, but factory farming is not why vegans don't eat meat. Vegans would continue to not consume animals even after factory farming was abolished. Because that's not what veganism is about. If your friends would start eating meat when factory farming is abolished, that means they are definitionally not vegans. Veganism has an actual definition and if you cannot cite that definition, you are not really qualified to tell vegnas what is and isn't vegan, are you?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (1 child)

    correct, I'm not talking about veganism. glad you finally got there. I'm talking about vegans

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    No. You said, "but [animals getting tortured in factory farms] is [the reason vegans don't eat meat] tho." That is the whole dispute. That statement is factually incorrect, but you keep doubling down and doubling down. I repeat, your statement is inconsistent with the basic definition of veganism.

    Veganism is the reason that vegans don't eat meat. That is trivially obvious. Veganism doesn't say it is okay to eat meat if it wasn't factory farmed. It says do not exploit animals. These are factual claims that you can easily verify by consulting The Vegan Society. I'm sure your friends are against factory farms, but, going way back to the original claim that you are trying to dispute:

    THAT ISN'T THE REASON VEGANS DON'T EAT MEAT.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    You know a lot of vegans eating free-range chicken?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (2 children)

    I know a good number of people who don't eat factory farmed meat because of how the animals are treated. some of those people are vegans.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 weeks ago

    Yeah... enabling both arguments, you have the two ideas:

    • "feels (perhaps a lot of) pain but will overall be ok"
    • "will die (regardless of its ability to feel pain)"

    They are not remotely comparable. The comic indeed makes no sense.

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