Memes

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -21 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Whataboutism.

The undeniable fact is that Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around. That makes Russia the aggressor and Ukraine the victim in that conflict.

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[–] culprit@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

History started in 2022. I am very smart!

“Four months into this thing, I like the structural path we’re on here. As long as we help Ukraine with the weapons they need and the economic support, they will fight to the last person,” said Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) early into the war, accidentally voicing what the war’s critics have often said about the war — that the U.S. will fight it “to the last Ukrainian.” Later, Graham called it the “best money we’ve ever spent.”

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -11 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Are you capable of admitting that Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around?

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[–] culprit@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 week ago (1 child)

The revolutionary violence that swept Kyiv’s Maidan Square on the night of February 21, 2014 unleashed the forces of Ukrainian nationalism and, ultimately, Russian revanchism, and resulted in, among other things, the first full-scale land war in Europe since 1945.

In November 2013, Ukrainian President Victor Yanukovych rejected the terms of the European Union Association Agreement in favor of a $15 billion credit agreement offered by the Russian Federation. Many in the western part of Ukraine had supported the EU deal, as it would have, in their view, secured Ukraine’s future within Europe.

But, as the Europeans, Americans, Ukrainians and Russians knew full well, the association agreement with Brussels wasn’t merely a trade deal. Section 2.3 of the EU-Ukraine association agenda would have required the signatories to:

"...take measures to foster military cooperation and cooperation of technical character between the EU and Ukraine [and] encourage and facilitate direct cooperation on concrete activities, jointly identified by both sides, between relevant Ukrainian institutions and CFSP/CSDP agencies and bodies such as the European Defence Agency, the European Union Institute for Security Studies, the European Union Satellite Centre and the European Security and Defence College."

In other words, the trade deal also included the encouragement of military interoperability with forces viewed, rightly or wrongly, by the Russian government as a threat to Russian national security.

In addition, the EU association agenda required Ukraine to put up barriers to trade with Russia. An alternative proposal put forward by Romano Prodi (former Italian Prime Minister and EU Commission president) would have allowed Ukraine to trade with both Russia and the EU but was rejected by Brussels.

And so, the U.S. lent its support to the post-Maidan government (and the Anti-Terrorist Operation, or ATO, launched in April 2014) against the largely, but of course far from entirely, indigenous uprising in the Donbas. Thus began the first phase of the war, which lasted until the evening of February 24, 2022 and cost 14,000 dead and 1.5 million refugees.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/maidan-ukraine/

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -13 points 1 week ago* (1 child)

The "threats to national sovereignty" argument is complete and utter horseshit. The absolute undeniable fact is that Ukraine did not attack Russia until it was attacked first.

That nonsense is exactly like trying to argue that I had the right to shoot you because I thought you looked at me funny. It's just categorically dishonest.

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[–] culprit@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 week ago

Two-Thirds Support for genocidal Israel

Whataboutism.

14,000 dead and 1.5 million refugees

because I thought you looked at me funny

It’s just categorically dishonest.

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[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 week ago* (1 child)

Are you capable of admitting that the Ukranian government was engaged in an eight year campaign of ethnic cleansing?

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -12 points 1 week ago (2 children)

So that's a "no," then. Thanks for confirming your bad faith.

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[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 week ago (1 child)

Why do you guys always avoid this topic?

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -11 points 1 week ago (1 child)

I'm the one trying to stay on topic. You give me a fucking straight answer first, and then I'll answer yours!

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[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 week ago

I'm not the same person you asked

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[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 week ago

Go back to Reddit

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[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 week ago*

"Erm sir it is actually a heckin whataboutism to point out that I have aligned myself with Nazis"

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[–] Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 week ago*

Whataboutism.

Seriously claiming that other people engage in "whataboutism" is just an admittance of one's own hypocrisy.

The undeniable fact is that Russia invaded Ukraine

After NATO self-admittedly kept pushing for war with Russia with Ukraine as its proxy.

That makes Russia the aggressor and Ukraine the victim in that conflict.

Attempting to join the most prolific invader in the world is an act of aggression, and so is pushing for war with Russia. I wouldn't say that responding to those makes a state the aggressor, but the people of Ukraine (excluding its leadership) are some of the victims.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 week ago (1 child)

Nobody said Russia didn't invade Ukraine. Communists aren't pacifists, we do not have such an unnuanced ideology as "anti-warism." We oppose imperialism, which is a global system headed by the US Empire, a material process with definite characteristics. We do not simply take a moralist stance that whoever gets invaded is just, otherwise we would have supported the Statesian confederacy against the invading Union.

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -8 points 1 week ago* (1 child)

Nobody said Russia didn’t invade Ukraine.

Pointedly, nobody in the entire fucking thread has been willing to admit that it did, either. Can you? Can you actually say the words "Russia invaded Ukraine" instead of dancing around it in the negative?

We oppose imperialism, which is a global system headed by the US Empire

The idea that you define imperialism as 'the thing the US does' sure explains a lot!

Meanwhile, back in reality, the actual definition of imperialism depends on the actual actions being taken, not who is taking them. The US is imperialist. Russia is also imperialist. Everybody sucks here.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

No, we do not define imperialism as "the thing the US does." Imperialism was first analyzed as a stage in capitalist development when countries like the UK and Germany were greater imperialist powers, in the years leading up to World War I. It wasn't until after World War II that the US became the imperial hegemon, leveraging the devastation of Europe as a chance to claim the spotlight and fill the power vacuum.

Imperialism as a stage in capitalism is best characterized by consolidation of monopoly bank and industrial capital into finance capital, and the shift from an economy based on export of commodities to export of capital. Just because the US does this does not mean this is how imperialism was first analyzed, nor does trying to vulgarize the definition of imperialism to be any aggressive action by one country to another erase the fact that this system does materially exist. It exists even if you shut your eyes to it.

Russia has a paltry sum of finance capital. It cannot replace the US Empire, it has no colonies nor neocolonies. It is a dictatorship of nationalist bourgeoisie, run on commodity production, not on export of capital as its basis. It is not imperialist.

As for your edit, I already said Russia invaded Ukraine. It wasn't out of nowhere, it was a response to increasing millitarization and ties with NATO, as well as the attempted ethnic cleansing of the Donbass region of ethnic Russians.

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -7 points 1 week ago (1 child)

No, we do not define imperialism as “the thing the US does.”

I literally quoted you: "imperialism is a global system headed by the US Empire."

Imperialism was first analyzed as a stage in capitalist development when countries like the UK and Germany were greater imperialist powers, in the years leading up to World War I.

WTF are you talking about? Imperialism has existed longer than capitalism! Sure, the British Empire was imperialist, as was the German Empire. But so was France under Napoleon. So was Spain back in the 15th Century. So was motherfucking Rome, two millennia before capitalism was even invented.

And pointedly, so was Russia, going all the way back to the Tsars. See, for example, Russia's 19th century imperialism (along with Britain; I'm perfectly willing to admit that) in the form of "the great game" fighting over central Asia.

The idea that only western capitalists are capable of being imperialist is just fucking ludicrous nonsense.

By the way, I realize that it was a quick edit and you may have missed it, but you didn't respond to my challenge to actually write the words "Russia invaded Ukraine" instead of passively denying the opposite.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 week ago (1 child)

The fact that imperialism is a global system headed by the US Empire does not mean that this is how we define it. Imperialism as a stage in capitalist development arose around the end of the 19th century, when there was no imperial hegemon. There were different imperialist powers struggling for supremacy, which was the main cause of World War I.

You're correct, Tsarist Russia was an imperialist country, but there was a communist revolution, and the ensuing government abolished ownership of Russian colonies, ending Russian imperialism. The fall of the USSR did not come with new colonies, those were already freed. There was not a legal recognition of the old Tsarist colonies under the new Russian Federation, so I don't see how that's relevant.

Regarding older forms of imperialism, such as in Rome, those systems are dead. No country is imperialist in the old, Roman sense any longer. Just like how early tribal societies were a form of "early communism," but that this is not the same as future industrialized communism, earlier forms of imperialism are not the same as imperialism as a stage in capitalist development. They share similarities, such as the exploitation of territories for the sake of the imperial ruling class, but the mechanisms at play are very different.

There is no idea that "only western capitalists are capable of being imperialist." Japan is imperialist, for example. It just so happens that at this stage in imperialist development, the imperialist powers are overwhelmingly western. You're confusing how imperialism is presently manifested with how it's defined.

And I did respond to your edit, take a look.

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[+] grue@lemmy.world -8 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

Imperialism as a stage in capitalist development

Okay, but if "as a stage in capitalist development" is what you mean, that's way more fucking specific than just "imperialism" in general and so you folks here can't just say "imperialism" and expect people to treat you as anything other than clowns who don't know what words mean.

but there was a communist revolution, and the ensuing government abolished ownership of Russian colonies, ending Russian imperialism.

So you're really going to pretend that the Warsaw Pact wasn't imperialism? Even though you claim NATO is? Sure, buddy.

The fall of the USSR did not come with new colonies, those were already freed.

Not for lack of trying. If you don't think invading Georgia and Ukraine count as attempts at colonization, especially under the definitions you keep applying to the US, you're just delusional.

the imperialist powers are overwhelmingly western

And Russia is one of them! There is essentially fuck-all difference between Russia under Putin and the US under Trump, in terms of political or economic ideology.

The collapse of the USSR was essentially an example of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" (in terms of economic system, not geopolitical alliances). There is no anti-imperialist counterbalancing going on here; the US and Russia are just two rival bullies fighting over the same turf.

I understand what you think you're going to accomplish by supporting Russia, but all you would actually accomplish is trading out one imperialist capitalist oppressor for another.

And I did respond to your edit, take a look.

Still too many excuses. The simple fact is that Russia is not entitled to decide how Ukraine conducts its own internal affairs, and so nothing you wrote was relevant at all.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 week ago*

Regarding what imperialism even is, I think you should return to how I explained it as a system earlier:

Imperialism as a stage in capitalism is best characterized by consolidation of monopoly bank and industrial capital into finance capital, and the shift from an economy based on export of commodities to export of capital. Just because the US does this does not mean this is how imperialism was first analyzed, nor does trying to vulgarize the definition of imperialism to be any aggressive action by one country to another erase the fact that this system does materially exist. It exists even if you shut your eyes to it.

In essence, imperialism as Marxists understand it is an actual system that materially exists, no matter what we call it. We can call it "Marxist imperialism" if you like, and we can use "imperialism" to refer to the vibes-based understanding that exists predominantly. No matter what we call it, Marxists specifically oppose "Marxist imperialism" while we don't actually believe everything that falls under colloquial understandings of imperialism is inherently bad, such as when the Statesian north invaded the Statesian south.

As for the Warsaw pact vs. NATO, this is an excellent example of why understanding "Marxist imperialism" as a system is so critical. Not all military alliances are tools of imperialism. The key difference between the Warsaw Pact countries and NATO is that the Warsaw Pact countries were all socialist, and not "Marxist imperialist," while the NATO countries all are "Marxist imperialist" and use NATO to further this system as described earlier.

Regarding Georgia and Ukraine, neither represents an expansion of Russian finance capital. Most of Russia's military action is a response to encirclement by imperialist countries and militaries. The west throws allegations of colonial intent despite provoking the invasions in the first place. The goal of the west is to isolate and Balkanize Russia so as to make it easier for western financial capital to proliferate, while Russia is primarily self-interested in maintaining its own sovereignty.

The major difference between Russia and the US is that Russia is a nationalist dominated capitalist economy based on commodity production, while the US is an imperialist dominated capitalist economy based on export of capital and unequal exchange. Both are dominated by capitalists, but the actual material functioning of these economies is very different precisely because of the difference in stages in development. This puts the two at odds.

As for the dissolution of the USSR, it was dissolved via counterrevolution, not because socialism is less effective. There are complexities there, but these go beyond the extent of this conversation. What's important is that socialism dissolved, but this did not bring a resurgance of "Marxist imperialism," because the world was already divided up amongst the existing "Marxist imperialist" powers.

Again, when you equate Russia and the US, and think Russia could ever replace the US as imperial hegemon, you make it clear that you do not understand "Marxist imperialism" as a system. I will restate this again: Russia has an absolutely paltry sum of finance capital. Without developed finance capital, Russia cannot replace the US Empire as imperial hegemon. "Marxist imperialism" requires the very tools and functions of "Marxist imperialism" to exist in the first place, and these do not show up instantly in other countries. Russia has less than a dozen of the top 500 countries in the world. It has no ability to replace the US Empire.

As for Russia not having the "right" to attack Ukraine, this is a moralist argument, not a materialist one. Russia is self-interested in its own defense, and the west knowingly poked the bear. The largest victims are those in the Donbass region that were ethnically cleansed by Ukraine, and the second largest are the members of the Ukrainian working classes that are being sent to their deaths so that the west can harvest Ukraine for minerals while the comprador regime in Kiev profits on the side.

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[–] Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 week ago

So you’re really going to pretend that the Warsaw Pact wasn’t imperialism? Even though you claim NATO is?

NATO is carrying out a genocide and enforces relations of severe unequal exchange, unlike Warsaw Pact which literally acted against all that.

What is your issue with the Warsaw Pact?

Not for lack of trying. If you don’t think invading Georgia and Ukraine count as attempts at colonization

Apart from you not understanding what colonisation is, there are also the following issues:

Georgia was the one to attack the peacekeepers in South Ossetia, as well as South Ossetians. Not sure what you think Russia should have done differently.
Ukraine had a NATO coup d'etat, and immediately attempted to become a glorified NATO military base (while also selling off its wealth to NATO capitalists in unpopular moves). That is an unambiguous act of aggression, and I am again not sure what you think Russia should have done differently.

There is essentially fuck-all difference between Russia under Putin and the US under Trump

Apart from the fact that, for all its massive faults, contemporary Russia hasn't been the aggressor in military conflicts (no, reaction to NATO's aggression via Ukraine is not itself aggression), and has militarily helped various countries fighting against your colonial subjugation of them.

Also, why are you singling out the US and Trump, and not all of the other invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan?

I understand what you think you’re going to accomplish by supporting Russia, but all you would actually accomplish is trading out one imperialist capitalist oppressor for another.

Let's say you were correct. Why wouldn't one trade NATO for a much more manageable foe?