I never claimed that either of those factions was being solely controlled by a foreign power, by the way. As I said, there is some genuine support and some foreign influence in both cases, and I’m merely saying that I don’t see a reason to treat one side as more legitimate than the other.

You did, you even reiterated it just now?

Correct. I don’t consider it a Western puppet because Russia invaded it, but because of the 2013 coup.

The first time,

The overthrow of the central government involved some degree of genuine support by the people and some degree of foreign backing and control.

the second time with back tracking. And you move forward claiming you never said it was solely controlled but that the US was the bad guy when they did it and Russia was not for... reasons?

I think we both agree that Ukraine doesn't exist in a bubble. It not only has influence from these specific foreign powers but probably every single power in the world because that's kind of how a global economy works. The US/the west/the EU have a financial incentive in Ukraine the same as Russia, both are somewhat legitimate to want what they want. I think we both understand that but also do not respect or enjoy that fact about the world as it is gross and imperialistic and removes a nation and it's people's sovereignty.

I’m merely saying that I don’t see a reason to treat one side as more legitimate than the other.

But there is for two massive reasons. First, Ukrainians have made their choice where they would like to go, towards the EU and what they want is a democratic country. That reason standing alone is the deciding factor. Neither Russia or the US was the reason hundreds of thousands marched in the street, every individual made that choice themselves. It is so silly when political leaders refer to protestors as fake or paid or whatever. I know for a fact in protests there are bad actors, some of them paid, some of them are even local law enforcement. But that many bodies did not walk into the street and get paid to do so, that was their choice. And for that reason their want to move towards the EU, which was the whole reason they protested in the first place. Ukraine wanted ties to the EU, they wanted those trade deals and benefits. When it was rejected, they stormed into the street and decided what they want. So for a foreign power allied with the EU or in the EU to take measures to aid a sovereign Ukraine to that direction is legitimate. Second, Russia engaging in deceitful and violent measures to derail that goal lessens their claims further, it literally makes them the bad guy here. They are trying to change what the Ukrainian people want and now there is a war of disgusting aggression going on, bodies are being destroyed and lives wasted and ruined for Russia (see Putin's) personal wants. Which is absolutely disgusting and makes it so any argument to compare the west and Russia's goals in Ukraine completely incomparable.

Incidentally, there was a leaked phone call from the state department discussing who should wind up in power from Euromaidan, and wouldn’t you know it, their picks were the ones who did.

Again as we both have stated above, these countries have vested interests it is unrealistic to say they shouldn't discuss this. Nothing in that phone call was offensive or imperialistic. It's not speaking of corruption or subverting law, it's talking about their goals in Ukraine.

"A senior aide for Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused Washington of "interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs," the BBC reported."

Which is fuckin' hilarious because A) Yanukovych is Putin's guy. B) Putin is literally doing the same exact thing, you're lying if you don't admit that. C) If Yanukovych succeeded in snuffing out those protests you can bet Putin's picks for Ukraine's government would be sitting in their positions now too. You're literally doing it again where you give Russia this invisible pass and act like the US/the west is the only one who is doing these things and at the same time you're saying things like :

I am perfectly happy to apply the same standard in both cases, it’s you who’s applying a double standard. On what basis should I determine that the Western-backed movement in western Ukraine is more legitimate that the Russian-backed movement in the east? It’s utter nonsense.

But you're BLATANTLY NOT. Which is what I'm arguing about here. You're just not. I'm sitting here stating openly how both of these actors are doing the same behavior except one has turned to bloodshed and lies and the other has peddled in lies BUT with the caveat that the Ukrainian people have decided which direction they want to go, not towards the bloodshed guy who you are literally arguing in favor for. So no, you're being dishonest or you don't understand your own position or you're straight up misunderstanding/being intentionally obtuse and ignorant.

Ha! And what mechanisms are those, exactly? I was given a binary choice between two parties, both of which supported the Palestinian genocide, both of which supported an aggressive stance against China, both of which opposed lifting sanctions against North Korea or similar countries, etc. When I voted for a third party that actually represented my interests but had no chance of winning, I received constant criticism for it and was accused of being a secret Trump supporter.

Or tell, me, which major presidential candidate did not want to continue fighting in Afghanistan for 20 years? Bush, Kerry, Obama, McCain, Romney, and Clinton were all 100% in favor them, despite their unpopularity. As I said, part of the reason for Trump’s success was appearing to be an outsider to that bipartisan consensus, but then he of course continued the war in Afghanistan and even started another one in Iran. The ruling class will never allow you to vote away the war machine.

Our elections are not democratic, by design. A handful of immensely wealthy people, the ruling class, can pour massive amounts of money into them with no regulation. The two major parties have no requirement to provide a free and fair primary process and are perfectly within their rights to rig them or just hand pick whatever candidate they like. Congress consistently operates with an approval rating below 20%.

Once again, we see your double standard at play. When the US has such factors compromising our elections, it’s exceptional, it’s because of foreign money, etc. But Russia and China have elections too, and when there are issues with those elections, they don’t get any sort of excuses, they are simply rotten to their core, fundamentally undemocratic. It’s because I don’t make exceptions in my analysis of the US that you see my analysis as biased and unfair, because you don’t realize your own bias.

As opposed to what/who? Putin who has sat in power for the last 20 years unchallenged? The Kim regime? China's single party? You are given a choice, there are not two parties. There is not one election. Every two years and sometimes more there is a chance to vote. If "Not Voting" was an option to win the office it would win every single time. You're parroting talking points of foreign interests in the United States/the west which is that democracy is a sham why bother voting. You see this all over lemmy from these supposed "marxists" who apparently don't want any form of representation I guess and embrace authoritarianism? It's nonsense. How can you call yourself any form of a left-leaning ideology without the understanding of representation and democratic procedures. You're literally arguing on the behalf of authoritarians and stating at the same time you are a proud marxist. Make it make sense?

This is where you fall flat on your face claiming liberals fall into loyalty or something. Americans are so heavily critical of their government, there's not a single president everyone has 100% liked in our life time. Every presidency is riddled with criticism and backlash and calls to remove them. You don't have that in these countries you're literally supporting, you're going to tell me you don't support them but you literally are by giving Russia these fake passes that allow them to engage in the same activity the west does, while also being far worse, and acting like they don't fucking do it too. For lack of better words it's childish to think other people don't see through that instantly. And once again you fall into this same line of thinking that if they don't agree with YOUR OPINION, it isn't really democracy and it isn't legitimate which is so funny because that's the opposite of democracy. People don't have to agree with you and your personal view of legitimacy doesn't have to be accepted. How many elections across this entire country have happened since the year 2000? Likely over 100,000 elections, that's my small estimate. You think out of 100,000 local to presidential elections not a single candidate has supported a withdraw from the middle east or afghanistan? Off the top of my head here's a few: Dennis Kuchinich, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Richardson, JOE BIDEN(WHO LITERALLY WITHDREW FROM THE MIDDLE EAST!?)

What we see here is you playing a pick and choose game. You decide the US is interfering in Ukraine not Russia. You decide they aren't true liberals and it isn't real democracy because they aren't what YOU want. You parrot obvious Russian talking points trying to delegitimize both elections in the US and in Ukraine, the will of the people in both countries "aren't real" and we can talk all day about corruption, foreign influence, the power of money and it's ability to influence campaigns. But you're just ignoring simple truths.

Again, if "Not Voting" was a candidate, it would win EVERY SINGLE TIME. The problem isn't the system here, it is people like you who throw up their hands and whine when they don't win. The solutions are there and obvious. I'm done here. Ridiculous