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You may not like it, but this is what peak democracy looks like (thelemmy.club)
submitted 2 months ago* by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Sorry but I got the hick.

The whole "Zelensky is a Nazi" thing is part of the Russian propaganda narrative.

I would personally disagree, not completely but I feel it’s incorrect. I would ask, is Zelensky leading a country with fascist ideology? Let’s see…

Ukrainian independence groups were ideologically aligned with the main enemy of the Soviets, which was Nazi Germany.

Well, that’s concerning, no?

This is the whole "Banderite" term being flung around: fascist groups who fought against the Soviets for Ukrainian independence

The “Banderite” term refers to Stepan Bandera.

Bandera remains a highly controversial figure in Ukraine. Many Ukrainians hail him as an example, or as a martyred liberation fighter, while other Ukrainians, particular in the south and east, condemn him as a fascist or Nazi collaborator whose followers, called Banderites, were responsible for massacres of Polish and Jewish civilians during World War II.

Bandera in 2010 was awarded as “Hero of Ukraine”. He is in traditional folk Ukrainian music. In October 2007, the city of Lviv erected a statue dedicated to Bandera. On 1 January 2014, Bandera's 105th birthday was celebrated by a torchlight procession of 15,000 people in the centre of Kyiv and thousands more rallied near his statue in Lviv. In 2021, the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory under the authority of the Ukrainian Ministry of Culture, included Bandera, among other Ukrainian nationalist figures, in Virtual Necropolis, a project intended to commemorate historical figures important for Ukraine.

Ukraine still regards these people as heroes for fighting against the Soviets.

Well, that’s concerning pt.2

Their fascist ideology is mostly ignored, even by Zelensky (a Jewish man himself).

Bibi looking at your comment like 👀

Even today there are far-right groups in Ukraine. Zelensky has essentially recruited these people in the fight against Russia since they are fervent nationalists.

Well, that’s concerning pt.3

In reality, actual fascist ideology isn't a widely held belief in Ukraine

How the U.S. Has Empowered and Armed Neo-Nazis in Ukraine

Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History

Nazis in Ukraine: Seeing through the fog of the information war

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Do you think Ukraine should allow the invasion and surrender, if a large portion of their support comes from Nazi sympathizers? I'm not trying to rage bait or or pull a "So yOu thInK thIS tHEn?!" I'm genuinely trying to understand the other side of the argument.

    Like, I agree with you, it's obviously not "good" to have those fucks on your side. But it's really easy for me to say that while I'm sitting on my ass in my comfortable house thousands of miles away from conflict. If I were the leader of a country being invaded by a much larger force, and I had essentially a militia in my country ready to fight and defend it, and my options were "use the militia or watch your nation burn", I'd probably be in the same position..

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    And I will try to reply in a normal way, I promise. I already got this same question discussing the same topic (not saying someone is repeating a propaganda they did not understand, but you know… here we are again.)

    Do you think Ukraine should allow the invasion and surrender, if a large portion of their support comes from Nazi sympathizers?

    This question makes a big assumption that it’s hard to ignore. Because “if a large portion of their support comes from Nazi” we have only two options: either you don’t have people fit for combat that are not nazi in your entire country (so you are a leader of a nazi country) or they are not all nazi and you are picking the bad ones for… reasons?

    we are also ignoring that we are discussing an “if” questions. So yes, we can make up any reality we want.

    Like image asking: “what man? Hitler either had no choice but to create the SS or his country would be destroyed!”

    ???? I mean, okay good… what do you want me to tell you…

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago*

    @papalonian@lemmy.world the nazi thing is not propaganda; the united states congress literally banned weapons sales to ukraine because of heir nazis proclivities. their first attempt to do so was back in 2015 -- ask yourself how are you 11 years slower than congress in recognizing this?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Thank you for the good faith response, promise I'm not a parrot for anyone lol.

    In my (uninformed) view, it isn't so much that, "Ukraine only has Nazis capable of fighting", so much as it's, "Russia is a way bigger country with a larger army, we need literally everyone we've got, even the Nazis".

    Like if the entire country was rallying behind a Nazi flag and they were tossing people in concentration camps and making plans to genocide another group it'd obviously be a different story, but they're trying to kick people out of their own land, and as far as I know (again, not terribly far) they don't have plans to keep going afterwards. If that were the case... Yeah, maybe Russia should just take em all out. Not a fan of Russia, but less of a fan of Nazis.

    The Hitler analogy isn't a fair one because Germany was an aggressor. The argument can't be made that they were in the same situation that Ukraine is in.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    Like if the entire country was rallying behind a Nazi flag and they were tossing people in concentration camps and making plans to genocide another group it’d obviously be a different story

    I'll just point that the rallying behind a Nazi flag is not exactly how things go in reality. MAGAs use the USA flag for the majority, the Brazilian far right tried to stole the Brazilian soccer uniform as a their symbol(which is the country flag colors), the Ukraine banderites was using the Ukraine flag(with the nazi spin).

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    it's, "Russia is a way bigger country with a larger army, we need literally everyone we've got, even the Nazis".

    That’s a lot of fascists tho. Also, what a depressing and shitty situation to be in. If that was the case and we want to be shiny warriors of justice, we should at least talk about it.

    Like if the entire country was rallying behind a Nazi flag and they were tossing people in concentration camps and making plans to genocide another group it'd obviously be a different story

    Ukraine has always been a very divided country (east/west) and the central government has been hostile towards Russian majority oblasts (and there are since Russia is a neighbour). There is whole wiki page about Ukrainization which itself it’s a strange concept, no? Ukraine and the Ukrainian language come from Russian, it was the most beloved region during the URSS, little Russia was called. Why all this hostility, why the ukrainization? It’s like doing an irlandization of British people living in Irland. That sounds insane no?

    The argument can't be made that they were in the same situation that Ukraine is in.

    But look now how far we went, from “Putin is crazy dictator who just wants war” to “he might be right about the de-nazification of Ukraine”. Also this is almost literally the meme where the guy tattoos a swastika to prove he’s not a Nazi.

    I’m not saying he’s right, but if my next door neighbour calls my dead mother a whore everyday and one day I punch him in the face, that’s still violence but he deserves it. You won’t catch me crying for nazis, that’s all.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago*

    Also, what a depressing and shitty situation to be in.

    I mean yeah. That's more or less my take. I don't agree with the mentality of, "Ukraine can do no wrong in the defense of their country", I don't think that their alliance with their fascist groups should be swept under the rug or buried in history or anything like that. It's a sin they will have to pay for in one way or another eventually. But I don't think it's enough (at least for me) to side with Putin. Even if Ukraine was a majority fascist nation and Zelensky was an open Nazi sympathizer, my limited knowledge of Putin's politics do not lead me to believe that he would stage an invasion solely for the altruistic act of rooting out the Nazis.

    I'll have to take a look at the Ukrainization wiki article. I knew of the divide between the East and West and that there was hostility between native Ukrainians and foreign Russians, but did not know there was a specific term for the "culture war".

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    In reality, actual fascist ideology isn’t a widely held belief in Ukraine

    The Azor group tied party got about 1% in popular election.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    Is 1% a widely held belief?

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It’s a metric to gauge the feelings towards fascists ideology. Yes, 1% for a strictly confirmed military Nazi battalion? Yes it is a lot.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    It’s a metric to gauge the feelings towards fascists ideology.

    What country are you from? Or alternatively, which government/organisation do you feel is doing the good work? Let's check if that country/org has a far righters and what is the feeling of other citizens towards their far righters.

    Yes, 1% for a strictly confirmed military Nazi battalion?

    1% for far right group, not for the battalion. And having ONLY 1% of far righters or nationalists in any country is frankly better than I expected.

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