Logic (thelemmy.club)
submitted 4 months ago by to c/comicstrips@lemmy.world
 
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[–] 8 points 4 months ago (56 children)

The problem is that this is a valid argument, a lot of morality ultimately comes down to drawing the line on what you think its ok to kill in order to maintain your survival and comfort.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (54 children)

    Yes. Vegans draw the line at sentience, non-vegans have some arbitrary line based on what is culturally acceptable where they live. Which, in many places, is about the cuteness of the animal.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    No. Hard to define, sure, but definitely not arbitrary. Plenty of research on the topic of sentience.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    what I mean is it's an arbitrary line to draw. you might choose to draw the line at living things, or terrestrial life, or terrestrial and ocean life. but, arbitrarily, some people choose to draw the line at sentience. the vegan society definition arbitrarily draws the line at animal life.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    Again, it is not arbitrary, it is based on what we understand of sentience. Nothing arbitrary about it.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    it is arbitrary, since you can choose to draw the line in many places.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    But sentience itself is a rather hazy definition, while it works from a perspective of minimizing suffering there are still potential concerns with the concept of just deciding some types of life are worth more than others.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Yes, but with our current knowledge, we can only do our best at drawing the line of sentience. With what we know of plants, we can safely conclude they are not.

    If that knowledge changes someday to point at plants being sentient, then we can redefine what is ethical.

    There is no such thing, with our current knowledge, as plant suffering. And that's all we can base our opinion and ethics on. The hypothetical that plants may suffer is irrelevant in ethics discussions until we have any evidence that they do.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Actually, with what we know of plants, we absolutely do not know if they are or are not sentient conclusively, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that they do in fact possess the potential capacity to suffer in as much capacity that animals do, just in ways that would be entirely alien to us due to how different a plant's experience of reality is compared to an animal's. Yet, just because their experience is alien to us doesn't mean they do not have those experiences and the evidence suggests that they do have them.

    Plants have complex sensory systems that allow them to communicate, learn, remember, and respond dynamically to external stimuli. They have been found to exhibit Pavlovian responses and collectively manage resources between each other through their root structures and mycorrhizal network.

    https://www.nathab.com/blog/research-shows-plants-are-sentient-will-we-act-accordingly

    https://regenerationinternational.org/2025/04/20/plant-sentience-changes-everything/

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    I have read through the two articles that you linked as sources. Neither is a credible source, as neither points at any point to a scientific study that comes close to recognizing sentience in plants. It's once again anthropomorphism. At best, drawing wrong conclusions from real studies, at worst, fiction.

    I have an open mind, but I'm only interested in scientific studies, not unproven hypotheticals or personal interpretations of plant behaviors.

    If you do have credible studies (by that, I mean peer reviewed and published) on plant sentience, then by all means, please share them.

    These sources have as much value to me as some random article on the memory of water.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    ... we absolutely do not know if they are or are not sentient conclusively...

    We don't even know if other people are sentient conclusively, so I see possible sentience as a non-factor when it comes to edibility.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    The vegan's argument isn't valid, but it's on the way to it. If the carnivore does believe that life isn't sacred, that does not imply they would condone eating all types of meat. It sort of leads into the "name the trait" argument that vegans use to have carnivores identify what makes certain foods morally permissible to eat, but not others. If such a trait is chosen, you can have a valid argument that it is morally acceptable to eat a dog/cat/human that lacks said trait.

    The carnivore's argument seems to just be a strawman. I have never heard a vegan say all life is equally valuable. Typically vegans oppose the unnecessary exploitation of animals on the basis of the suffering inflicted and lack of ability to consent. This has some edge cases for life that we classify as animals but may not be capable of suffering, but a person committed to the idea that plants and fungi cannot be eaten either will obviously not be able to argue their position for long.

    Many vegans would eat lab grown meat. Some may even eat meat that was harvested ethically, such as an animal that died in an accident, as that would not reasonably lead to encouraging any future suffering. And in an emergency situation, almost everyone would eat meat that they would need to survive. None of this contradicts the principle that preventable suffering should be minimized.

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