127
rule (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 3 years ago by to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net
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Just reposting this excellent point from lemmygrad

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[–] 9 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (6 children)

I think it's a reference to "getting the wall" aka summary execution aka one of the great crimes against humanity perpetrated by revolutionaries in the past that is cause for understandable distrust among leftist non-communists especially, anarchists like myself, whose philosophical comrades were among the murdered.

OP, please don't go there. We're better than that and don't have to repeat the tragedies of the past.

EDIT: To try to reduce the friendly fire, I did not recognize that this image was from the Romanovs.

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  • [–] 42 points 3 years ago* (2 children)

    You think it was bad that the tzar got Merced? While it's sad that his children got killed, it was also politically expedient. We've seen time and time again that allowing the royal line to continue is just begging for counter-revolution or the occurrence of a government-in-exile. The tzar and his family benefitted from a system (which they maintained themselves) that killed children daily. The royal family encouraged pogroms.
    While the murder of the inheritors of the Romanov line is regrettable, it is in no way some "great crime".

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  • [–] 11 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (3 children)

    You think it was bad that the tzar got Merced?

    No. Definitely deserved, though trial would have been preferable.

    The murder of the children, I do see as unforgivable, however. If they'd committed none of the crimes of their ancestors, it doesn't matter who they were, it was murdering children and should not be excused in any way.

    The royal family encouraged pogroms.

    Hereditary rule is itself something that is inherently unjust and it is right to put to an end. I don't know that there has ever been a royal family that did not commit crimes against humanity.

    While the murder of the inheritors of the Romanov line is regrettable, it is in no way some "great crime".

    I was not aware initially that the image was from the Romanovs. I took it to be a blithe dehumanization and calling for summary execution of bigots. That's a dark path to repeating the dehumanization and murder of allies, like anarchists, when it becomes politically expedient.

    ETA: I like Hexbears for the leftist unity, taking protection of LGBTQ+ folks seriously, and generally welcoming and engaging conversation. I hope you understand why someone who identifies with anachro-syndicalism can get a bit jumpy when there's talk of "walls" and/or summary execution, considering history.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    That’s not how absolute monarchy works. The family line had to end or there is always a rallying cry to re instate an autocratic ruler

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I'd argue that China is a historical counter-example. Killing children for crimes that they MIGHT commit is still just murdering children and the kind of thing that the feudalists and bourgeois engage in regularly throughout history, to the detriment of humanity.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    It's not killing children for crimes they might commit. It's killing children due to them being part of a larger system that has to be eradicated. In this sense the children are as much victims of the system as anyone else is.

    The circumstances that allowed china to turn Puyi into a janitor were not the same circumstances that forced the hand of the soviets to pull the trigger without trial. Had the royal family fallen into the White Army's embrace, then the USSR would never truly be safe from a monarchist reaction.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    This, I agree with. It's easier to judge from a current perspective when not facing that danger. I do think it is important to maintain the context though, as you pointed out, the children were victims of the same system and should be treated as such. Just because an act was monstrous does not mean it may but have been necessary. And just because an act was necessary does not mean that it was not monstrous.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    I think I take issue with the choice of calling the act monstrous. It was both necessary and understandable, while we can be detached from emotion, that family sat at the top of a system that had plagued people for centuries. Expecting cold rationality, especially in those conditions, is silly.
    I don't think a monstrous act can be necessary.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    I think, as you mentioned elsewhere, this is such a situation where it's not black and white. The family had been a true blight on the people and could not be allowed to continue their rule. You are absolutely correct in that expecting cold rationality is a mistake humans are emotional creatures (something that I've had to get comfortable with myself). To me, killing a child will always be a monstrous act and being found necessary or understandable doesn't change that.

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  • [–] 21 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    I agree with your points overall but i feel frustrated since the argument about avoiding revolution and counterrevolution was ignored.
    The argument rests on the fact that it was not some malicious murder done out of evil in the heart of a vengeful prole (though I would not blame them for it) but instead a politically motived killing caused by the material reality and historical risk monarchial heirs have proven to be time and time again. This is not dehumanising.

    I don't really get the point about being jumpy by the mention of walls. For one thing it is a common refrain both on this site, and "to be put in front of the wall" or similar phrases are normal in many languages. Assuming that a left unity site would be talking of killing other leftists, strike me as a strange initial assumption.

    I don't really see why anarchists would be extra hurt by the talk of walls, if you are here referring to historical conflicts. It was not as though that fighting was a one-sided affair either. The makhnovosts made use of secret police, and were in a lot of ways quite repressive. Reaction and counterreaction is not tied to a specific ideology.

    I think the idea of wanting to take protection of minorities and LGBTQ+ seriously, but then also being squeamish at the allusion or mention of violence, strikes me as incoherent as well. Protecting people against reactionaires will, at times, require violence. Likewise will the changing of the system require violence.
    That is to me a sad fact, but it is only grotesque because we do not consider how much violence is used every day to maintain the system as it is.
    I think Mark Twain puts it very nicely:

    THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I agree with your points overall but i feel frustrated since the argument about avoiding revolution and counterrevolution was ignored.

    My apologies. Thanks for calling that out and giving me a chance to respond before going on the offense, it was not intentional but came from a but if shock at how quickly several fellow leftists that I've had good interactions with, on a leftist unity site, turned on me seemingly without missing a beat.

    The argument rests on the fact that it was not some malicious murder done out of evil in the heart of a vengeful prole (though I would not blame them for it) but instead a politically motived killing caused by the material reality and historical risk monarchial heirs have proven to be time and time again. This is not dehumanising.

    I agree with nearly all of that. I do, disagree on the last bit though. To my thinking "they are x, so must be killed regardless of is they have committed crimes" is dehumanization. It is placing them in a category that exempts them from fundamental human rights. I do understand the motivation and it may have ultimately been the correct choice to prevent more suffering, especially in the absence of many examples at the time of heirs of deposed rulers NOT later attempting counter-revolution. China did later show that it can be done, I think.

    I still cannot not agree with that "end justifies the means" ethics approach, especially when it comes to children, who have a greater ability to change.

    I don't really get the point about being jumpy by the mention of walls. For one thing it is a common refrain both on this site, and "to be put in front of the wall" or similar phrases are normal in many languages. Assuming that a left unity site would be talking of killing other leftists, strike me as a strange initial assumption.

    I don't really see why anarchists would be extra hurt by the talk of walls, if you are here referring to historical conflicts. It was not as though that fighting was a one-sided affair either. The makhnovosts made use of secret police, and were in a lot of ways quite repressive. Reaction and counterreaction is not tied to a specific ideology.

    This comes from historical treatment of anarchists and other leftists in the aftermath of revolutions, not directly the meme itself. Dehumanization of a group of enemies makes it easier to later dehumanize allies who don't fully agree on how to organize society. Summary execution and similar acts of violence forces those who carry it out to change in order to reduce the impact of the trauma, and is likely to cause reduction in empathy, etc. Empathy is vital. That's why I object to such a thing being a common refrain.

    When it comes to Makhno and the Greens, I do philosophically have to side with the Greens - my loyalty is to common folk who have always suffered the most in every conflict in documented history. Both Red and White armies treated them as ripe for exploitation and seizure of resources, without consideration of the impact on their ability to survive. The formation of a military force for mutual defense was a necessity.

    I think the idea of wanting to take protection of minorities and LGBTQ+ seriously, but then also being squeamish at the allusion or mention of violence, strikes me as incoherent as well.

    The language used was too open. It wasn't "transphobes who have harmed people" or "bigots that participated in lynchings". It was simply "transphobes". Language and context matter greatly to me (possibly due to not being neurotypical), especially when talking about ending human lives. I took the meme to be akin to the monstrousity of "kill them all and let god sort them out"; alluding to indiscriminately killing without considering ignorance or psychological trauma from abuse that can be addressed.

    Protecting people against reactionaires will, at times, require violence. Likewise will the changing of the system require violence.
    That is to me a sad fact, but it is only grotesque because we do not consider how much violence is used every day to maintain the system as it is.

    Sadly, I do agree. Non-violence alone did not win workers rights or the rights of minorities. As much as I detest it, it does appear from all evidence something that is a necessity, in the face of those that understand no other language.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Many turned on you.

    Yeah, I noticed that and it is regrettable. I think some people are on edge, but that doesn't really justify things. I've been on the receiving end of a few dogpiles here, and it's always been frustrating, because it's not really due to anything other than some users assuming you mean the worst, and then digging their heels in.
    I also think some users on this instance feel inundated with a surity that they are on "the right side of history" and therefore they do not need to ever examine their own ideology. It's frustrating. Many of these people are Marxists, yet self-crit us something they only think they should do when they get dogpiled.

    It is dehumanising.

    In retrospect I can see how I completely misphrased my viewpoint. It is dehumanising, you are correct. However it is not the people killing the royal family doing the dehumanising, it is the system which they exist in itself. From the moment those kids were born they were royals, and that fact made them into something other than people. That other thing cannot exist without being a threat to a democratic society.
    I think Robespierre stated this argument quite well against king Louis:

    Louis was the King, and the Republic is established. The vital question that occupies you here is resolved by these few words: Louis has been deposed by his crimes. He denounced the French people as rebels, and to punish them he called upon the arms of his fellow tyrants. Victory and the people have decided that he alone was the rebel. Consequently, Louis cannot be judged. Either he is already condemned, or else the Republic is not absolved. To suggest that Louis XVI be tried in any way whatsoever is to regress toward royal and constitutional despotism. A proposal such as this, since it would question the legitimacy of the Revolution itself, is counterrevolutionary. In actuality, if Louis can still be brought to trial, he might yet be acquitted. In truth, he is presumed innocent until he has been found guilty. If Louis is acquitted, what then becomes of the Revolution? If Louis is innocent, all defenders of liberty are then slanderers. . . .

    ...

    The trial of Louis XVI? What is this trial if not an appeal from the insurrection to some tribunal or assembly? When the people have dethroned a king, who has the right to revive him, thereby creating a new pretext for riot and rebellionÑand what else could result from such actions? By giving a platform to those championing Louis XVI, you rekindle the dispute between despotism and liberty and sanction blasphemy of the Republic and the people . . . for the right to defend the former despot includes the right to say anything that sustains his cause. You reawaken all the factions, reviving and encouraging a dormant royalism.

    ...

    Regretfully I speak this fatal truthÑLouis must die because the nation must live. Among a peaceful people, free and respected both within their country and from without, it would be possible to listen to the counsel of generosity which you have received. But a people that is still fighting for its freedom after so much sacrifice and so many battles; a people for whom the laws are not yet irrevocable except for the needy; a people for whom tyranny is still a crime subject to disputeÑsuch a people should want to be avenged. The generosity which you are encouraged to show would more closely resemble that of a gang of brigands dividing their spoils.

    Makhno and the greens.

    I did not bring that up to argue who was good or bad, but to show that his idea of anarchists just suddenly being put in front of a wall is sectarian. I will again point out that the framing of the reds being oppressive as opposed to the makhnovosts is sectarian as well. Makhnovia had a secret police, political repression and persecution as well. It was war, it's necessary. I will not go into a discussion of makhnov versus the Soviets, it's just gonna be pure sectarianism and we will gain nothing from relitigating conflicts from a century ago. I'm sure you didn't intend any sectarianism on your part.
    I brought up makhnov and alluded to Spain in order to highlight that people were executed as result of fighting against each other. It was not some sudden turnabout, it was the result of one side losing a conflict both participated in.
    Either way being hung up on these events from a time before we were born seems very counterproductive to me. As I've already pointed out, it's not tied to some leftist infighting conflict, the only one I've ever encountered that mentioned that connotation is you.

    The language was too open.

    While I agree it is not specific, I'd like to point out that is a meme. It's not supposed to communicate more than a thought, not an entire concept. It is posted on a leftist forum, and it is assumed you can somewhat interpret its meaning on your own. It's not supposed to be taken 100% seriously, not everything has to be serious all the time. It's meant as joke for us and a threat towards those harbouring a transphobic sentiment.

    violence is necessary.

    Yea, at times. I don't think it should be glorified, but I don't think that sentiment is black and white either.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    First of all, thank you for the good and productive discussion and not assuming malice or sectarianism. Neither malice nor sectarianism were indeed meant; quite contrary, I want for us to learn from these events and encourage empathy and positive interactions in the hopes of avoiding such in the future.

    In retrospect I can see how I completely misphrased my viewpoint. It is dehumanising, you are correct. However it is not the people killing the royal family doing the dehumanising, it is the system which they exist in itself. From the moment those kids were born they were royals, and that fact made them into something other than people. That other thing cannot exist without being a threat to a democratic society.

    I don't entirely disagree there and thank you very much for the Robespierre, I've not read him directly before. I find myself that much more glad that such decisions have not been required of me. Royals were not always royals, so, I do not believe that it is something immutable about them the moment that they are born. But, in the context, at the time, I cannot say that it was not the way to save the most lives.

    Either way being hung up on these events from a time before we were born seems very counterproductive to me.

    Absolutely. I just want to do what I can to avoid rhyming with the harms caused by such divides and help keep it hard to dehumanize our comrades in this struggle.

    While I agree it is not specific, I'd like to point out that is a meme. It's not supposed to communicate more than a thought, not an entire concept. It is posted on a leftist forum, and it is assumed you can somewhat interpret its meaning on your own. It's not supposed to be taken 100% seriously, not everything has to be serious all the time. It's meant as joke for us and a threat towards those harbouring a transphobic sentiment.

    A very good point. I may have been a bit extra sensitive there due to having been close to kids who suffered senseless violent deaths and my own personal baggage.

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  • [+] 35 points 3 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago

    As noted elsewhere, I was not aware of what particular wall it was and took it to be a call for summary executions of bigots in general. I absolutely do think that royals should not exist and should be punished for their crimes against humanity.

    When it comes to the the children there, that was just murder though. Strip them of their titles and, if they commit crimes, try them for them, as was done in China (though I do think that he was let of lightly for his crimes in Manchuria).

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  • [–] 34 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I think the quote from Mark Twain about the two reigns of terror fits in this context as well.

    “There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.”

    How many trans people have suffered unnecessarily due to transphobes, how many have died? How many cultures have been destroyed because Europeans came in and enforced a gender binary where there wasn't one before? We don't keep track of every single trans person murdered, we don't keep track of the misery of starvation and poverty of trans folks, we don't keep track of every time a trans person is looked past for employment. If we take the protection of minorities seriously we need to look at these instances and act accordingly and make sure they can't do any more harm. And before you say reeducation, how many of these people have been educated but decided to ignore it because it's a conspiracy of groomers, or they just don't care about the scientific evidence and will just continue to hate it because it's against their religion. What do we do with these people that refuse to change?

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago

    I think the quote from Mark Twain about the two reigns of terror fits in this context as well.

    Absolutely. Very apt, especially with the context of the image, which I was initially ingnorant of (and look at the fun reactions that I've had from people who I've had previous good interactions with due to that ignorance). I took it to mean "the wall" in general, calling for summary executions.

    The Romanovs and every other royal and aristocratic family together committed crimes against quantities of humans that I think is likely in the billions. I do not think that the fate of the family, with exception of the children, is undeserved, though, arguably it was getting off light.

    How many trans people have suffered unnecessarily due to transphobes, how many have died? How many cultures have been destroyed because Europeans came in and enforced a gender binary where there wasn't one before?

    The answer to both is too many. And it needs to stop.

    And before you say reeducation, how many of these people have been educated but decided to ignore it because it's a conspiracy of groomers, or they just don't care about the scientific evidence and will just continue to hate it because it's against their religion. What do we do with these people that refuse to change?

    Many have been abused themselves and "educated" to be the way that they are. There are changes in their brains that heighten fear responses, etc. I am not completely certain of the best path for dealing with those that refuse to change but do know that refusing to give them a chance to change in the first place by executing them, as was my interpretation of the meme, is just murder.

    I'm not meaning that we should pardon their crimes, if they have committed any, just that every excused murder makes it easier to excuse the next. And that makes it easier to excuse murders of a wider and wider group. State sponsored violence changes people.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Go fuck yourself, seriously, get the fuck out of here

    one of the great crimes against humanity

    Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME?

    Fuck off you liberal scumbag

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Come on mate, not a lib. I was not familiar with that particular wall and saw it as a call for summary execution of bigots, which is a fucked up thing.

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  • [+] 11 points 3 years ago (2 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 22 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)

    I would hope they get rehabilitated into tolerant society rather than murdered.
    Murder isn't good. It's necessary at times, but we shouldn't celebrate murder of people in peacetime.

    Summary executions come by as a result of the conditions of the society the executed exists in. There is not always time for a fair trial, or the society cannot be trusted to carry out a fair trial or the victims of the criminal are present and carry out the sentence as a result of need for immediate retribution- retribution which we can retroactively acknowledge as just as well. The Barbara pit was a combination of these three, which is why we can retroactively feel as though it was just. Had the partisans rounded up a group of suspected SS members in 1972 and thrown them into a pit, then that would've been a different story. We should want and expect fair trials - even of those that are suspected of heinous deeds. We cannot expect such trials in the modern west currently, but that does not mean we should celebrate summary executions - They are a necessary mean to an end, they are not an end goal to themselves.

    Summary executions aren't good in themselves though, and it is not something we should wish for society, or celebrate for a society in general.

    Current day? Yeah transphobes get the wall, we can't trust the government to do anything. If some transphobe rocks up to an event wielding a rifle, scaring people and generally escalating the situation, then I hope that person gets got, and Ill laugh about it too. fuck-around
    If we're in some commie utopia were all that's left is to deal with people's regressive views, then I don't think it would be good to make the woke-stazi kick in peoples doors and shoot them on the spot for writing shitty stuff online.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago

    You can have a leftist community, or you can treat bigots with kid gloves. You can't do both.

    Where am I advocating for use of kid gloves? Any fair and just society must treat all as equal when it comes to criminal behavior, not having separate classes where some are "more equal". Bigots trying to cause harm should see justice, as much as anyone else.

    Summary execution is not something to be lauded or celebrated. Doing so diminishes you as well as much as it does your enemies.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    An anarchist having sympathy for one of the bloodiest regimes of the 19th and early 20th century makes absolutely no sense

    Is this a bit?

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  • [–] 8 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    No. An anarchist not knowing that it was the wall from the Romanovs, thus thinking it might be any wall where people were executed.

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  • [+] 8 points 3 years ago (2 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 16 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    We all make mistakes, they clarified and apologised, no need to dig your heels in and continue on the same path as before

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  • [–] 8 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Ok that's good for them, I'm simply clarifying hexbear's anti-sectarian policy cause apparently alot of lemmy users take issue with it and following the rules in general

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I dunno. I've only been on Lemmy for a few months. Some people really enjoy being edgelords on the Internet. Without the context of what particular wall it was with bullet holes from summary executions, it could just as easily been a farmhouse where Black and Tans murdered someone for speaking Irish, to me.

    Context matters and I didn't have it - might be good to ensure that everyone is on the same page before deriding and belittling them. The world's fucked up enough as it is without going off on each other or assuming malice when ignorance is the cause.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I agree context does matter, that's why it's usually sensible to look for context clues before engaging in a sectarian screed about the typical commies murdering folks because it was "perpetrated by revolutionaries in the past"

    But hey I got no beef, you claim it was ignorance I'll take your word for it

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