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[+] 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)
  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    This is exactly the dynamic the article was describing: concerns about power concentration get answered with lists of theoretical protocol features instead of engaging with how the network actually operates. Listing technical escape hatches doesn’t address who controls the dominant infrastructure in practice.

    The overwhelming majority of users rely on hosted PDSes, the main relay, and the default appview. Whoever controls those layers controls visibility, discovery, moderation signals, and reach. That’s where practical power sits. Doesn't matter whether migration is technically possible under ideal conditions because if you'll need it they won't be ideal.

    Acquisitions and policy changes can happen quickly. Tools that exist “yesterday” are irrelevant if users don’t act before control consolidates, and history shows that most don’t. Claiming decentralization can wait until the last possible moment ignores how network effects and defaults entrench power long before any formal lock-in occurs.

    It’s also worth noting that the original article isn’t even arguing “the fediverse is better,” yet the response immediately reframes the debate as a comparison. Even if we entertain that framing, the situations aren’t symmetrical. Yes, a fediverse instance can block migrations or misbehave but no single party in the fediverse comes close to the infrastructural dominance Bluesky Corp currently holds across relays, appviews, and user gravity. An individual Mastodon instance misbehaving affects its users. Bluesky Corp fully controls the experience of over 99% of the users on the protocol and so holds the power to shape the experience of the entire network.

    The issue isn’t whether both systems have theoretical weaknesses. It’s where systemic leverage concentrates in practice. And ATProto’s architecture, particularly the cost and complexity of running the more demanding components that need to have a global view of the network, structurally favors concentration at those layers.

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  • [+] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (3 children)

    The features are theoretical in the sense that there is no real guarantee they'd be possible after BSky corp changes their behavior and that they are in use only in the least significant way possible, for tiny and irrelevant numbers of users. But of course this is just restating the obvious again. For a network truly to be shielded against this sort of thing it should be decentralized already before.

    See this for how constellation makes no difference.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    @73ms @irelephant

    In terms of how prepared atproto users are to use adversarial migration, I did a point-in-time survey a couple months ago: https://rob.leaflet.pub/3m7isflo7ls23

    I suspect the situation has slightly improved since then, as some or all of the migration tools offer to set up rotation keys for you, but I haven't had time time to do a followup.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Insanely well said. It seems like the goal with much of the discourse is just "my choice is right and everything else is wrong, and I'll work backwards from there". Not everyone uses social media the same way, not everyone has the same goals, not everyone wants the same features, not everyone values the same levels of privacy. And the running narrative with differing opinions on this seems to just be base-level tribalism. Just look at the insults here, lobbed solely because someone made an account with a social media platform that doesn't align with your preferences.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    I'm sorry, but it's like you haven't read the post:

    But every counter-argument to the concerns above rests on the same foundation: technically, users can leave. Technically, you can self-host. Technically, you can run your own relay. The capability exists at every layer. But people don't do these things. They never have with any protocol. Not email, not RSS, not XMPP. The default wins. Always.

    It is always technically possible to do differently. It's computers after all: anything can be coded. And most people won't because they have their life to live. What matters is the default, and all the incentives point to the default being shittier as time goes on.

    The most crucial point is the relay. Yes, appviews can work without, but then you miss everything that is happening which is probably the number one reason people go to bluesky rather than the fedi. Relays are a fundamental part of what makes bluesky attractive and they require large capital to run and maintain, so it all points to bluesky still running the main one that most will connect to

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  • [+] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    It costs $34 a month for an experiment. It doesn't cost anywhere near that for a node that is running, used by thousands/millions of people, ingesting millions of pdses. Don't be misled by a nice experiment. You need servers, backups, people to run that. See what real world deployment looks like: a little bit under 100k a year for the only independent full stack.

    There's no need to self host as there's already public third party instances you can switch to.

    Yes it's possible. It's just not the default. That's the issue

    it's not something the fediverse is immune to either.

    true, although no one said the contrary

    This is just incorrect. RSS is probably one of the least centralised protocols right now, it's not even federated, which makes me question why the author even included it as an example

    The argument isn't whether something exists, it's what people use: rss is amazing but it's far from being mainstream. The default path to following isn't rss, which is the point (and the problem).

    It's not an argument against federation. It's an argument to look beyond the niceness of a tech.

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