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Why can't magazines/communities aggregate content from other instances? (kbin.social)
submitted 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) by to c/fediverse@kbin.social
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When I look at https://lemmy.ml/c/startrek vs https://kbin.social/m/startrek I see two entirely different lists of posts. Why? It's the same topic, just on different instances. How can we have communities about topics without having them siloed into their own instance-based communities? Is this just related to that 0.18 issue with Lemmy/kbin not talking nicely, or is this how the Fediverse is?

Is it (at least theoretically) possible for me to post an article on https://kbin.social/m/startrek and have it automatically show up on https://lemmy.ml/c/startrek, or are they always going to be two separate communities?

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[–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (12 children)

So you're saying that 14 of the 15 "mini forums" shouldn't exist, and everyone should use a single instance, but access it through their instance via the Fediverse (like subscribing to !startrek@lemmy.world on kibin)? If so, wouldn't that mean a consolidation of power for the !startrek@lemmy.world instance, and thus go against what federation is about in the first place? Or am I misunderstanding the whole purpose of decentralized social media? I thought the reason we wanted to use the Fediverse over Reddit was because Reddit had too much control over the content, but if one instance has all the content, doesn't that instance have just as much power as Reddit has now?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (6 children)

    He's saying that 14 or 15 "mini forums" don't have to exist. "Shouldn't" doesn't enter into it, there are no rules about this kind of thing.

    It only means consolidation of power in the startrek@lemmy.world instance if everybody prefers to go there over the alternatives. If the moderators or admins there go mad with their moderate amount of power and the community there starts sucking, everyone can switch over to a different startrek on a different instance.

    I thought the reason we wanted to use the Fediverse over Reddit was because Reddit had too much control over the content, but if one instance has all the content, doesn't that instance have just as much power as Reddit has now?

    An instance only has power over its own self. If lemmy.world's administrators suddenly pull off their masks to reveal that they were Reddit's admins all along, everyone can just switch to using a different startrek community on a different instance.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 years ago* (5 children)

    Isn't that still a consolidation of content/users, though? I thought the Fediverse was about decentralization, whereas I keep hearing that it's okay to centralize content/users on individual instances if it happens naturally. Wouldn't that just lead to situations where the mega instance could control the contents/users? Migrating users to an entirely new instance is hard, I mean just look at how hard it is to get people to leave Reddit. It just feels like either I'm missing something, or the Fediverse is just a new technical way to recreate a system that we already have and complain about. If a single instance has total control over the content and users (not the user accounts, just the fact that a huge number of users would be following that specific instance), then how is it decentralized?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    Wouldn't that just lead to situations where the mega instance could control the contents/users?

    No, it would not, I and others in this thread keep telling you that. There's no need for users to have an account on that "mega instance" in order to interact with the community there, and if that community or instance goes sour it's no effort at all for the users to switch to interacting with a different community on a different instance.

    It just feels like either I'm missing something

    Yes, I think so. It feels like the same things are being said back and forth repeatedly, so we're probably talking past each other.

    You may have an idiosyncratic definition of "decentralization", perhaps. There are multiple ways of decentralizing stuff. In the case of the Fediverse, you still have communities "centralized" in that their content is located on a particular instance, but the users can interact with that community from any instance. This is hugely different from Reddit, which has only one instance that's completely and forever under their control, where users can never interact with anything outside of it.

    Migrating a user to a new instance is hard, yes, but you don't have to.

    If a single instance has total control over the content and users (not the user accounts, just the fact that a huge number of users would be following that specific instance), then how is it decentralized?

    How does an instance have "total control" over users from other instances? It has no control at all. At worst it can defederate, which would just hurry along their migration to a new community that's on some other instance.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (3 children)

    How does an instance have "total control" over users from other instances? It has no control at all. At worst it can defederate, which would just hurry along their migration to a new community that's on some other instance.

    Look at Reddit: it's gone bad, and yet millions still use the site. So much so, in fact, that content on many subreddits is posted every few minutes, whereas the same communities here on kbin see hours or days between posts. That's what I mean: people are used to the solution they like, so if a community becomes "bad" enough to make me move to a different instance, it might not be bad enough for everyone else, and so I'd be stuck moving to a smaller instance while the majority of users continue using the "bad" instance. Just because I don't need to create a new account doesn't change that fact.

    If I don't want to use Reddit, all of the content and users that I benefit from are still over on Reddit. No matter how much I'd like everyone to switch over to kbin, they don't think Reddit is as big of an issue as I do. Clearly. So what am I supposed to do if that happens with !startrek@startrek.website in a few years? Do I have to put up with a bad site as long as everyone else puts up with it, too? Or do I have to move to a smaller community on a different instance just so I don't have to deal with the problems of the original instance?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children)

    Look at Reddit: it's gone bad, and yet millions still use the site.

    Because they are trapped there. A user account on Reddit remains on Reddit, it can't access communities outside of Reddit.

    If Reddit were magically part of the Fediverse then I, FaceDeer@kbin.social, could have been posting on startrek@reddit.com. Then when Reddit goes bad and startrek@reddit.com starts sucking, I can just start posting on startrek@startrek.website instead. No need to create a new account or "migrate" anywhere. The friction is minimal.

    Since Reddit is not part of the Fediverse, then the only way I could be posting to startrek@reddit.com would be if I was using the account FaceDeer@reddit.com and if Reddit goes bad then FaceDeer@reddit.com cannot interact with startrek@startrek.website. FaceDeer@reddit.com is "trapped" there, and I would have to create a whole new account to get off it (as I did).

    so if a community becomes "bad" enough to make me move to a different instance

    You don't need to move to a different instance. I'm not sure where this miscommunication is coming from. You can continue using timbervale@kbin.social if startrek@startrek.website "goes bad" and instead go hang out on some other startrek community without having to create a new account.

    Do I have to put up with a bad site as long as everyone else puts up with it, too? Or do I have to move to a smaller community on a different instance just so I don't have to deal with the problems of the original instance?

    Move to the smaller instance. Everyone else can move too. It's just as easy for them as for you. Then it becomes the bigger instance.

    If it's "bad enough" for you to move but not for them to move, perhaps you're being more sensitive to the badness than everyone else is. Maybe it's not so bad. If it is that bad, then why aren't they moving?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    Because they are trapped there. A user account on Reddit remains on Reddit, it can't access communities outside of Reddit.

    Creating a new account on kbin here was not exactly hard. Is your argument that millions of people still use Reddit because they can't type in a couple of data fields?

    Then when Reddit goes bad and startrek@reddit.com starts sucking, I can just start posting on startrek@startrek.website instead. No need to create a new account or "migrate" anywhere. The friction is minimal.

    Right, but then all of the other users that post interesting content that you went to startrek@reddit.com for are still on startrek@reddit.com, not on your new instance. Now, your new instance gets zero posts because it's new, but the old instance still has millions of people posting to it every second of every day. Yeah, you have a new place to post to, but all of the content that you went to startrek@reddit.com for in the first place is still over there. Federation did nothing to help that problem.

    You don't need to move to a different instance. I'm not sure where this miscommunication is coming from. You can continue using timbervale@kbin.social if startrek@startrek.website "goes bad" and instead go hang out on some other startrek community without having to create a new account.

    It's not miscommunication, it's just that I'm removing the option of changing to a different community/magazine on the same instance. If I can no longer stand being part of !startrek@startrek.website, I'm not going to start posting to !startrek2@startrek.website, I'm going to the next largest community, which is, at this time, usually on a different instance all together, like !startrek@lemmy.world. I'm not talking about my user account, I'm talking about the community/magazine itself. If a mod on !startrek@startrek.website goes crazy and starts banning people for talking about Star Trek: Discovery, I'm not going to want to be there, even if my account hasn't been banned, yet. As a result, I would need to find a new Star Trek community to post in, which is what I mean when I say I'd have to move to a different instance (because why would I switch to a different community/magazine on the same instance? And, also, there are a million scenarios where switching to a different community/magazine on the same instance would be a bad idea/impossible). Note that when I say community, I mean the equivalent of kbin's magazine, as Lemmy calls it a community.

    Move to the smaller instance. Everyone else can move too. It's just as easy for them as for you. Then it becomes the bigger instance.

    The entire reason I would subscribe to a community/magazine is because I enjoy interacting with the community there, and seeing/interacting with the content they post. If I switch to a smaller community/magazine, that content becomes exceedingly rare, and the number of people I can converse with drops dramatically. There are 315 subscribers to !electricvehicles@kbin.social, but 241,000 subscribers to https://reddit.com/r/electricvehicles. Clearly, the experience of posting to one vs. the other is drastically different, wouldn't you say? Why would I go to a place where I have just a few people to talk with, when I could stay on the old site that has thousands upon thousands of people? The same applies to if it were 5 years from now and !electricvehicles@kbin.social has 241,000 users but !electricvehicles@lemmy.world has 315: no one will want to switch if the mods of the larger community/magazine turn into assholes.

    If it's "bad enough" for you to move but not for them to move, perhaps you're being more sensitive to the badness than everyone else is. Maybe it's not so bad. If it is that bad, then why aren't they moving?

    So now it's, "if most people don't move, it's not really that bad, or it's your fault for thinking it's bad"?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago

    Creating a new account on kbin here was not exactly hard. Is your argument that millions of people still use Reddit because they can't type in a couple of data fields?

    Creating the account is not the only burden in this process, it's a whole other website you need to go to. All those objections you've been raising about "migrating content" and "migrating users" and whatnot that don't actually apply between federated instances do apply between the Fediverse and Reddit.

    Now, your new instance gets zero posts because it's new, but the old instance still has millions of people posting to it every second of every day. Yeah, you have a new place to post to, but all of the content that you went to startrek@reddit.com for in the first place is still over there.

    The scenario you originally proposed is that the current "main" community has gone bad in some way.

    Has it, or has it not, "gone bad"? If it has then people will want to leave it to go someplace that hasn't "gone bad." The Fediverse makes that easy. Reddit makes that hard.

    It's not miscommunication, it's just that I'm removing the option of changing to a different community/magazine on the same instance.

    You're not talking about federated instances, then. I'm talking about the Fediverse, and you seemed to claim to be talking about the Fediverse, but it really seems like you're not. I assumed that this was because you were failing to understand something that we were telling you, but at this point I'm really not sure any more. You appear to have some imagined version of the Fediverse that you're discussing that doesn't correspond to reality and you're refusing all correction that you're getting to this.

    Look, if you really want to stick with whatever is the biggest community regardless of how "bad" the admins have become, then just stay on Reddit. You don't need to come here. Stay on Reddit, endure whatever the admins decide to do with the site, because it's the biggest and that's all that matters to you. That's fine, everyone has different priorities.

    The reason people are migrating to the Fediverse is because it frees them from Reddit's admins, and will prevent future admin abuse by making it easy to interact with any instance from any other instance. Nobody's trapped on just one instance here, meaning nobody is stuck with dealing with just one set of admins.

    So now it's, "if most people don't move, it's not really that bad, or it's your fault for thinking it's bad"?

    Pretty much. What's wrong with that statement? Different people have different values and priorities and will consider different things to be "bad." There are people who use Reddit's official app and like it just fine. There are people who don't mind if their favourite subreddits are overrun with trolls or are lacking the best content because the good mods have all been driven away. That's fine, they can stay with Reddit if they want. Reddit doesn't have to die for the Fediverse to live.

    Do you want to come here? I've explained how it works. If you don't like how it works, don't come here. It's really quite simple.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago* (4 children)

    For any given community, yes, there must be a center. How else can there be admins and mods doing something as basic as keeping posts in a community on topic?

    But we don't need to put all the communities, or users, on one server. Each server can be the hub for different things, or even different parts of the same thing. For example, anime communities for different series are spread out all over the place, but there's still generally only the one, each.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (3 children)

    Right, but what about how websites work? Each website has its own server, but it connects via registrars for the domain names, other computers/servers learn about those domain names via distributed DNS servers, etc. I'm looking for a solution where I can access a giant collection of people/content all while using whatever site I want to use that fits my desires (or one that I spin up on my own). Right now, I'd have to access the largest instance if I want to have a large community, but then that one instance has all of the power over the content and users that use it, right? So basically the Fediverse is essentially akin to using a third-party app to browse Reddit: the app (in this case, the instance) grabs content from the API of Reddit (in this case the API of the host instance), and pulls it into its own database. I don't see how this is very different from what we currently have, though I'm trying to learn more about it and not just be a dick saying, "I don't get it, it's stupid, bye losers". Decentralized content is what I'm looking for, not just decentralized user accounts. Is that not a goal of the Fediverse?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    The goal of federation is explicitly NOT decentralised content.

    It DOES store content it in a decentralized way.
    It DOES allow interaction in a decentralized way.

    It DOES NOT decentralize control of the content. It can't. It shouldn't.

    The admin of an instance, can control all content on it.
    The top mod of a community, can control all content on it, across instances.
    You are in control of your own content, across instances.

    In a system that is truly peer to peer, truly decentralized, you could not edit. You could not delete. You couldn't even reliably take down content that breaks the law.

    The point is not that no-one should be in control of anything. Quite the opposite. The point is that no one entity should be in control of everything.

    In this, federation is completely different from other systems.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    See, I was thinking decentralizing control was the primary goal of federation. Reddit having total control over the content is killer for any other website, so it makes sense for others to want to abolish that grip.

    My thinking was like this: a community is made that every instance can join and post to, the posts would be shared across instances like a mailing list, and the community would be moderated on each instance by that instance's community (there would be a mod for !startrek@startrek.website and a different mod for !startrek@kbin.social), then each community on their own instances would moderate the content themselves, but it would just be a stream of content flowing into them for each instance to deal with itself. This would allow instances to moderate each community themselves according to their rules, as opposed to each community having rules that stretch across the Fediverse. This way a user would be able to post something to !politics@kbin.social, and a moderation team for the !politics@teenagers.wtf would be able to moderate the content coming from the greater "politics" topic according to their instance's rules and their own community's rules; I imagine users on kbin.social and users on teenagers.wtf to have very different ideas of what's acceptable within their communities. This kind of setup would allow a decentralization of users, content and control.

    Obviously I was very wrong as to my assumptions of the Fediverse, and I appreciate the education on the subject matter.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    Some form of aggregation may still be possible. Be it user by user, or server by server.

    But like I said in another comment, for the fediverse to work the way you imagined, the total number of people doing content moderation would have to be orders of magnitude greater than even facebook's or twitter's.

    Additionally the way it works is not mutually exclusive with differing ideas, only, in the way it actually works, instances that agree on moderation policy, can pool their efforts. Only where there are differences, are different communities and different moderators, needed.

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