▲ 552 ▼ Bay Area homeowners are hiring a sword-wielding man to help them kick squatters out of empty properties: ‘The average squatter has no melee experience’ (www.independent.co.uk) submitted 8 months ago by throws_lemy@reddthat.com to c/nottheonion@lemmy.world 179 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] Wildmimic@anarchist.nexus 68 points 8 months ago (28 children) wanted to say the same thing. what a dickhead, simping for landlords. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 29 child comments replies: [–] dohpaz42@lemmy.world -4 points 8 months ago (6 children) Hear me out: I don’t blame landlords for wanting to protect their investments. But, I do have a problem with them (and guys like James here) who do it at the expense of the downtrodden. Being a landlord should not have to be mutually exclusive with helping people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 39 points 8 months ago (4 children) I'm not seeing it. For there to be squatters, the landlords had to have this property open and unrented for a while. The only way that happens is if the rent is too high. What kind of landlord can afford to have a rental property vacant for a significant period of time and not accept a lower rent? Ones who own lots of property and would prefer to lose income rather than reduce the average rent price in the area. In the industry, withholding housing from people because you want to make more money, when you can clearly afford to get no income from it, is called "a dick move". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 child) The only way that happens is if the rent is too high. That’s not the only way. It’s not even very likely. If they are looking for too much rent and can’t get it they will lower their ask rather than sit there month after month getting nothing. Too high rent is the most easily fixable situation conceivable. Other explanations include things like: it’s owned by someone who is elderly and due to their health or other problem they simply aren’t managing it actively or are even incapacitated and can’t make major decisions. Perhaps the owner died and the property is in the probate courts, which can take years. Also, the presence of squatters doesn’t necessarily indicate it has been vacant for a long time. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago (1 child) Corporate landlords lose more by drops in real estate price and lowering of rent averages than a handful of empty properties. They have scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago In theory. Long term vacancy is not in any corporate landlord’s plan, though. They will adjust rather than seek impossible rent forever. And aside from large apartment buildings, most residences (75% of 1-4 unit buildings) are owned by small landlords who don’t give a shit about network effects. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Simulation6@sopuli.xyz 2 points 8 months ago (1 child) Squatters could move in the day after the property becomes empty. Really it depends on when it is noticed the house is unoccupied. Sometimes houses can't be sold for months because of legal BS (happened with my moms house). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago Yes, there are always edge cases. Wouldn't it be great if there were no corporate landlords and the problem was small enough to worry about those? permalink fedilink source parent [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) Counterpoint: some people would rent an Airbnb and stay after the two weeks they rented, effectively preventing the homeowner to return to their homes after a vacation. There's little legal recourse to speedily remove them, as two weeks of occupation requires a lengthy judicial process to evict them (IIRC in California). I dislike rent seekers too, but it happens to people with only one home as well. They think they could put their home to use while they're not there (effectively reducing the problem of real estate under occupation), only to be exploited. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If that's true, we would all do it. No? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) Are you asking why isn't everybody stealing each other's property? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If there's little repercussion and everyone is broke, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ecvanalog@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child) The thing is, what you describe is incredibly rare, to the point of being a statistical anomaly. Also, if you take the “low income” piece out of it, abusing others and cheating the system to save money is “just good business.” Ask all the millionaires doing immoral but TECHNICALLY legal things on their taxes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago You're mistaken, sadly. It doesn't happen more often because people got smart to it and no longer put their houses for rent for longer periods. And I don't get your whatabout millionaires comment. My comment was that not all squatting hurts landlords, some hurt regular people. I don't need to ask millionaires about it because it's not about them, it's about middle class people. permalink fedilink source parent [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 8 months ago (1 child) For there to be squatters, the landlords had to have this property open and unrented for a while. Huh? A squatter is most commonly simply a former renter who stops paying without moving out. The property is not vacant at any point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago* You're describing holdover tenants. Those are not the same as squatters. Holdover tenants have more rights in California. Edit: worded that wrong. permalink fedilink source parent [–] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) I don’t blame landlords for wanting to protect their investments. I'm a landlord (not by choice, but shit happens). I've never hired goons and never would. I do blame landlords for resorting to this kind of bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) Their investments fundamentally come at the expense of the downtrodden by relegating necessities behind a paywall that they have private ownership over. Being a landlord is fundamentally against helping people. It is explicitly about utilizing the private ownership over housing in order to profit off of someone else's inherent need of shelter. It is mutually exclusive and there is nothing that can be done to change that. The system is fundamentally oppressive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Katana314@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I'd definitely claim exception there in cases when someone travels often. Picture a guy who's going to study at the nearby university for one year, but isn't going to put down any roots in the city. But yes, I acknowledge that's a comparatively uncommon case to most renters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 8 points 8 months ago Transient tenants can be accommodated by collectively owned lodging. There is nothing that necessitates private ownership. permalink fedilink source parent [–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 9 points 8 months ago OK I heard you out. But I absolutely do blame them. It is mutually exclusive, they're parasites and aren't helping anyone. The guy who helps fix up your home is the property manager, for which landlords occasionally hire themselves using your rent money. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) Landlords protecting their investments is always at the expense of the downtrodden. The role of landlord is one that exists solely at the expense of the downtrodden, and it is mutually exclusive with helping people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Malfeasant@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago (1 child) I disagree, though I know I'll get roasted for it... Landlords do serve a purpose to a point. Not everyone wants to own property. Owning property ties you to a particular place, makes it difficult to leave. If you know you want to stay in an area for the rest of your life, or even just the next 10 years, absolutely, you should be able to buy, and not being able to is a societal failure. But if you don't know where you want to spend the rest of your life, you still need shelter now, and renting provides that, and when you decide to go somewhere else, it's relatively easy. One of my bigger regrets in life was feeling pressured to buy a house in 2005... Just in time for the subprime mortgage crisis. I had a traditional mortgage, but nonetheless, my house went from $150k to <50k in months. I was stuck. Couldn't sell without coming up with extra money to pay off the mortgage, but I wasn't in as bad shape as some people, I could afford the payments, so I couldn't justify walking away, just had to wait for it to rebound, which took another 5 years roughly. Had I been renting, I would have been able to leave much more easily. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 2 points 8 months ago There are ways to meet that particular need without landlords. Tenant unions buying out their apartment building and making it cooperatively owned, for example, or municipally owned public housing. The alternative to private property is public property. That kind of thing isn't available because private property owners are the ones calling the shots, and that would undercut their parasitic lifestyle. permalink fedilink source parent [–] deathbird@mander.xyz 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) The kind of squatters that you have to fight in court to get rid of are downtroden in the sense that all petty criminals are downtrodden. In the sense that the guy that robs you at the bus stop is downtrodden even as he treads down on you. Now I don't much give a fuck about people's return on investment and shit, but property, if you actually give a shit about it, is expensive to maintain and repair. That plus an arduous legal process highly incentivizes property owners to capitulate to unjust demands from squatters, much like any other robbery uses a threat of harm to coerce compliance. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (27 replies)
[–] dohpaz42@lemmy.world -4 points 8 months ago (6 children) Hear me out: I don’t blame landlords for wanting to protect their investments. But, I do have a problem with them (and guys like James here) who do it at the expense of the downtrodden. Being a landlord should not have to be mutually exclusive with helping people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 39 points 8 months ago (4 children) I'm not seeing it. For there to be squatters, the landlords had to have this property open and unrented for a while. The only way that happens is if the rent is too high. What kind of landlord can afford to have a rental property vacant for a significant period of time and not accept a lower rent? Ones who own lots of property and would prefer to lose income rather than reduce the average rent price in the area. In the industry, withholding housing from people because you want to make more money, when you can clearly afford to get no income from it, is called "a dick move". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 child) The only way that happens is if the rent is too high. That’s not the only way. It’s not even very likely. If they are looking for too much rent and can’t get it they will lower their ask rather than sit there month after month getting nothing. Too high rent is the most easily fixable situation conceivable. Other explanations include things like: it’s owned by someone who is elderly and due to their health or other problem they simply aren’t managing it actively or are even incapacitated and can’t make major decisions. Perhaps the owner died and the property is in the probate courts, which can take years. Also, the presence of squatters doesn’t necessarily indicate it has been vacant for a long time. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago (1 child) Corporate landlords lose more by drops in real estate price and lowering of rent averages than a handful of empty properties. They have scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago In theory. Long term vacancy is not in any corporate landlord’s plan, though. They will adjust rather than seek impossible rent forever. And aside from large apartment buildings, most residences (75% of 1-4 unit buildings) are owned by small landlords who don’t give a shit about network effects. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Simulation6@sopuli.xyz 2 points 8 months ago (1 child) Squatters could move in the day after the property becomes empty. Really it depends on when it is noticed the house is unoccupied. Sometimes houses can't be sold for months because of legal BS (happened with my moms house). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago Yes, there are always edge cases. Wouldn't it be great if there were no corporate landlords and the problem was small enough to worry about those? permalink fedilink source parent [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) Counterpoint: some people would rent an Airbnb and stay after the two weeks they rented, effectively preventing the homeowner to return to their homes after a vacation. There's little legal recourse to speedily remove them, as two weeks of occupation requires a lengthy judicial process to evict them (IIRC in California). I dislike rent seekers too, but it happens to people with only one home as well. They think they could put their home to use while they're not there (effectively reducing the problem of real estate under occupation), only to be exploited. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If that's true, we would all do it. No? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) Are you asking why isn't everybody stealing each other's property? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If there's little repercussion and everyone is broke, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ecvanalog@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child) The thing is, what you describe is incredibly rare, to the point of being a statistical anomaly. Also, if you take the “low income” piece out of it, abusing others and cheating the system to save money is “just good business.” Ask all the millionaires doing immoral but TECHNICALLY legal things on their taxes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago You're mistaken, sadly. It doesn't happen more often because people got smart to it and no longer put their houses for rent for longer periods. And I don't get your whatabout millionaires comment. My comment was that not all squatting hurts landlords, some hurt regular people. I don't need to ask millionaires about it because it's not about them, it's about middle class people. permalink fedilink source parent [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 8 months ago (1 child) For there to be squatters, the landlords had to have this property open and unrented for a while. Huh? A squatter is most commonly simply a former renter who stops paying without moving out. The property is not vacant at any point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago* You're describing holdover tenants. Those are not the same as squatters. Holdover tenants have more rights in California. Edit: worded that wrong. permalink fedilink source parent [–] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) I don’t blame landlords for wanting to protect their investments. I'm a landlord (not by choice, but shit happens). I've never hired goons and never would. I do blame landlords for resorting to this kind of bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) Their investments fundamentally come at the expense of the downtrodden by relegating necessities behind a paywall that they have private ownership over. Being a landlord is fundamentally against helping people. It is explicitly about utilizing the private ownership over housing in order to profit off of someone else's inherent need of shelter. It is mutually exclusive and there is nothing that can be done to change that. The system is fundamentally oppressive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Katana314@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I'd definitely claim exception there in cases when someone travels often. Picture a guy who's going to study at the nearby university for one year, but isn't going to put down any roots in the city. But yes, I acknowledge that's a comparatively uncommon case to most renters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 8 points 8 months ago Transient tenants can be accommodated by collectively owned lodging. There is nothing that necessitates private ownership. permalink fedilink source parent [–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 9 points 8 months ago OK I heard you out. But I absolutely do blame them. It is mutually exclusive, they're parasites and aren't helping anyone. The guy who helps fix up your home is the property manager, for which landlords occasionally hire themselves using your rent money. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) Landlords protecting their investments is always at the expense of the downtrodden. The role of landlord is one that exists solely at the expense of the downtrodden, and it is mutually exclusive with helping people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Malfeasant@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago (1 child) I disagree, though I know I'll get roasted for it... Landlords do serve a purpose to a point. Not everyone wants to own property. Owning property ties you to a particular place, makes it difficult to leave. If you know you want to stay in an area for the rest of your life, or even just the next 10 years, absolutely, you should be able to buy, and not being able to is a societal failure. But if you don't know where you want to spend the rest of your life, you still need shelter now, and renting provides that, and when you decide to go somewhere else, it's relatively easy. One of my bigger regrets in life was feeling pressured to buy a house in 2005... Just in time for the subprime mortgage crisis. I had a traditional mortgage, but nonetheless, my house went from $150k to <50k in months. I was stuck. Couldn't sell without coming up with extra money to pay off the mortgage, but I wasn't in as bad shape as some people, I could afford the payments, so I couldn't justify walking away, just had to wait for it to rebound, which took another 5 years roughly. Had I been renting, I would have been able to leave much more easily. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 2 points 8 months ago There are ways to meet that particular need without landlords. Tenant unions buying out their apartment building and making it cooperatively owned, for example, or municipally owned public housing. The alternative to private property is public property. That kind of thing isn't available because private property owners are the ones calling the shots, and that would undercut their parasitic lifestyle. permalink fedilink source parent [–] deathbird@mander.xyz 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) The kind of squatters that you have to fight in court to get rid of are downtroden in the sense that all petty criminals are downtrodden. In the sense that the guy that robs you at the bus stop is downtrodden even as he treads down on you. Now I don't much give a fuck about people's return on investment and shit, but property, if you actually give a shit about it, is expensive to maintain and repair. That plus an arduous legal process highly incentivizes property owners to capitulate to unjust demands from squatters, much like any other robbery uses a threat of harm to coerce compliance. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 39 points 8 months ago (4 children) I'm not seeing it. For there to be squatters, the landlords had to have this property open and unrented for a while. The only way that happens is if the rent is too high. What kind of landlord can afford to have a rental property vacant for a significant period of time and not accept a lower rent? Ones who own lots of property and would prefer to lose income rather than reduce the average rent price in the area. In the industry, withholding housing from people because you want to make more money, when you can clearly afford to get no income from it, is called "a dick move". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 child) The only way that happens is if the rent is too high. That’s not the only way. It’s not even very likely. If they are looking for too much rent and can’t get it they will lower their ask rather than sit there month after month getting nothing. Too high rent is the most easily fixable situation conceivable. Other explanations include things like: it’s owned by someone who is elderly and due to their health or other problem they simply aren’t managing it actively or are even incapacitated and can’t make major decisions. Perhaps the owner died and the property is in the probate courts, which can take years. Also, the presence of squatters doesn’t necessarily indicate it has been vacant for a long time. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago (1 child) Corporate landlords lose more by drops in real estate price and lowering of rent averages than a handful of empty properties. They have scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago In theory. Long term vacancy is not in any corporate landlord’s plan, though. They will adjust rather than seek impossible rent forever. And aside from large apartment buildings, most residences (75% of 1-4 unit buildings) are owned by small landlords who don’t give a shit about network effects. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Simulation6@sopuli.xyz 2 points 8 months ago (1 child) Squatters could move in the day after the property becomes empty. Really it depends on when it is noticed the house is unoccupied. Sometimes houses can't be sold for months because of legal BS (happened with my moms house). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago Yes, there are always edge cases. Wouldn't it be great if there were no corporate landlords and the problem was small enough to worry about those? permalink fedilink source parent [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) Counterpoint: some people would rent an Airbnb and stay after the two weeks they rented, effectively preventing the homeowner to return to their homes after a vacation. There's little legal recourse to speedily remove them, as two weeks of occupation requires a lengthy judicial process to evict them (IIRC in California). I dislike rent seekers too, but it happens to people with only one home as well. They think they could put their home to use while they're not there (effectively reducing the problem of real estate under occupation), only to be exploited. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If that's true, we would all do it. No? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) Are you asking why isn't everybody stealing each other's property? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If there's little repercussion and everyone is broke, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ecvanalog@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child) The thing is, what you describe is incredibly rare, to the point of being a statistical anomaly. Also, if you take the “low income” piece out of it, abusing others and cheating the system to save money is “just good business.” Ask all the millionaires doing immoral but TECHNICALLY legal things on their taxes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago You're mistaken, sadly. It doesn't happen more often because people got smart to it and no longer put their houses for rent for longer periods. And I don't get your whatabout millionaires comment. My comment was that not all squatting hurts landlords, some hurt regular people. I don't need to ask millionaires about it because it's not about them, it's about middle class people. permalink fedilink source parent [–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 8 months ago (1 child) For there to be squatters, the landlords had to have this property open and unrented for a while. Huh? A squatter is most commonly simply a former renter who stops paying without moving out. The property is not vacant at any point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago* You're describing holdover tenants. Those are not the same as squatters. Holdover tenants have more rights in California. Edit: worded that wrong. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 child) The only way that happens is if the rent is too high. That’s not the only way. It’s not even very likely. If they are looking for too much rent and can’t get it they will lower their ask rather than sit there month after month getting nothing. Too high rent is the most easily fixable situation conceivable. Other explanations include things like: it’s owned by someone who is elderly and due to their health or other problem they simply aren’t managing it actively or are even incapacitated and can’t make major decisions. Perhaps the owner died and the property is in the probate courts, which can take years. Also, the presence of squatters doesn’t necessarily indicate it has been vacant for a long time. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago (1 child) Corporate landlords lose more by drops in real estate price and lowering of rent averages than a handful of empty properties. They have scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago In theory. Long term vacancy is not in any corporate landlord’s plan, though. They will adjust rather than seek impossible rent forever. And aside from large apartment buildings, most residences (75% of 1-4 unit buildings) are owned by small landlords who don’t give a shit about network effects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago (1 child) Corporate landlords lose more by drops in real estate price and lowering of rent averages than a handful of empty properties. They have scale. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago In theory. Long term vacancy is not in any corporate landlord’s plan, though. They will adjust rather than seek impossible rent forever. And aside from large apartment buildings, most residences (75% of 1-4 unit buildings) are owned by small landlords who don’t give a shit about network effects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago In theory. Long term vacancy is not in any corporate landlord’s plan, though. They will adjust rather than seek impossible rent forever. And aside from large apartment buildings, most residences (75% of 1-4 unit buildings) are owned by small landlords who don’t give a shit about network effects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Simulation6@sopuli.xyz 2 points 8 months ago (1 child) Squatters could move in the day after the property becomes empty. Really it depends on when it is noticed the house is unoccupied. Sometimes houses can't be sold for months because of legal BS (happened with my moms house). permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago Yes, there are always edge cases. Wouldn't it be great if there were no corporate landlords and the problem was small enough to worry about those? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago Yes, there are always edge cases. Wouldn't it be great if there were no corporate landlords and the problem was small enough to worry about those? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) Counterpoint: some people would rent an Airbnb and stay after the two weeks they rented, effectively preventing the homeowner to return to their homes after a vacation. There's little legal recourse to speedily remove them, as two weeks of occupation requires a lengthy judicial process to evict them (IIRC in California). I dislike rent seekers too, but it happens to people with only one home as well. They think they could put their home to use while they're not there (effectively reducing the problem of real estate under occupation), only to be exploited. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If that's true, we would all do it. No? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) Are you asking why isn't everybody stealing each other's property? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If there's little repercussion and everyone is broke, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ecvanalog@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child) The thing is, what you describe is incredibly rare, to the point of being a statistical anomaly. Also, if you take the “low income” piece out of it, abusing others and cheating the system to save money is “just good business.” Ask all the millionaires doing immoral but TECHNICALLY legal things on their taxes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago You're mistaken, sadly. It doesn't happen more often because people got smart to it and no longer put their houses for rent for longer periods. And I don't get your whatabout millionaires comment. My comment was that not all squatting hurts landlords, some hurt regular people. I don't need to ask millionaires about it because it's not about them, it's about middle class people. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If that's true, we would all do it. No? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) Are you asking why isn't everybody stealing each other's property? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If there's little repercussion and everyone is broke, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) Are you asking why isn't everybody stealing each other's property? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If there's little repercussion and everyone is broke, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) If there's little repercussion and everyone is broke, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I think you either a) underestimate people's desires to not be absolute assholes; or b) underestimate how often this happens. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago Very possibly. But the train of thought loses me. If squatters were a very big problem, and most squatters come from overstaying rentals, fewer people would be landlords because of the high risk. There would be squatter insurance for landlords. I don't see that. So in our current situation, either squatters are not really that big of a problem, or the insurance industry is not being greedy enough? You can see why I think it's the former. And it also wouldn't explain the high vacancy rate. But here's an idea that fits what we see more closely. You have a bunch of unrentable units because they're not up to code. The owner doesn't want to fix it. They're just sitting on the property hoping it goes up in value so they can sell it. Squatters see that and move in because they don't care if it's up to code. The owners freak out because squatters reduce the property value. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ecvanalog@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child) The thing is, what you describe is incredibly rare, to the point of being a statistical anomaly. Also, if you take the “low income” piece out of it, abusing others and cheating the system to save money is “just good business.” Ask all the millionaires doing immoral but TECHNICALLY legal things on their taxes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago You're mistaken, sadly. It doesn't happen more often because people got smart to it and no longer put their houses for rent for longer periods. And I don't get your whatabout millionaires comment. My comment was that not all squatting hurts landlords, some hurt regular people. I don't need to ask millionaires about it because it's not about them, it's about middle class people. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 0 points 8 months ago You're mistaken, sadly. It doesn't happen more often because people got smart to it and no longer put their houses for rent for longer periods. And I don't get your whatabout millionaires comment. My comment was that not all squatting hurts landlords, some hurt regular people. I don't need to ask millionaires about it because it's not about them, it's about middle class people. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world -1 points 8 months ago (1 child) For there to be squatters, the landlords had to have this property open and unrented for a while. Huh? A squatter is most commonly simply a former renter who stops paying without moving out. The property is not vacant at any point. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago* You're describing holdover tenants. Those are not the same as squatters. Holdover tenants have more rights in California. Edit: worded that wrong. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago* You're describing holdover tenants. Those are not the same as squatters. Holdover tenants have more rights in California. Edit: worded that wrong. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) I don’t blame landlords for wanting to protect their investments. I'm a landlord (not by choice, but shit happens). I've never hired goons and never would. I do blame landlords for resorting to this kind of bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) Their investments fundamentally come at the expense of the downtrodden by relegating necessities behind a paywall that they have private ownership over. Being a landlord is fundamentally against helping people. It is explicitly about utilizing the private ownership over housing in order to profit off of someone else's inherent need of shelter. It is mutually exclusive and there is nothing that can be done to change that. The system is fundamentally oppressive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Katana314@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I'd definitely claim exception there in cases when someone travels often. Picture a guy who's going to study at the nearby university for one year, but isn't going to put down any roots in the city. But yes, I acknowledge that's a comparatively uncommon case to most renters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 8 points 8 months ago Transient tenants can be accommodated by collectively owned lodging. There is nothing that necessitates private ownership. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Katana314@lemmy.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) I'd definitely claim exception there in cases when someone travels often. Picture a guy who's going to study at the nearby university for one year, but isn't going to put down any roots in the city. But yes, I acknowledge that's a comparatively uncommon case to most renters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 8 points 8 months ago Transient tenants can be accommodated by collectively owned lodging. There is nothing that necessitates private ownership. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 8 points 8 months ago Transient tenants can be accommodated by collectively owned lodging. There is nothing that necessitates private ownership. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 9 points 8 months ago OK I heard you out. But I absolutely do blame them. It is mutually exclusive, they're parasites and aren't helping anyone. The guy who helps fix up your home is the property manager, for which landlords occasionally hire themselves using your rent money. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 9 points 8 months ago (1 child) Landlords protecting their investments is always at the expense of the downtrodden. The role of landlord is one that exists solely at the expense of the downtrodden, and it is mutually exclusive with helping people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Malfeasant@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago (1 child) I disagree, though I know I'll get roasted for it... Landlords do serve a purpose to a point. Not everyone wants to own property. Owning property ties you to a particular place, makes it difficult to leave. If you know you want to stay in an area for the rest of your life, or even just the next 10 years, absolutely, you should be able to buy, and not being able to is a societal failure. But if you don't know where you want to spend the rest of your life, you still need shelter now, and renting provides that, and when you decide to go somewhere else, it's relatively easy. One of my bigger regrets in life was feeling pressured to buy a house in 2005... Just in time for the subprime mortgage crisis. I had a traditional mortgage, but nonetheless, my house went from $150k to <50k in months. I was stuck. Couldn't sell without coming up with extra money to pay off the mortgage, but I wasn't in as bad shape as some people, I could afford the payments, so I couldn't justify walking away, just had to wait for it to rebound, which took another 5 years roughly. Had I been renting, I would have been able to leave much more easily. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 2 points 8 months ago There are ways to meet that particular need without landlords. Tenant unions buying out their apartment building and making it cooperatively owned, for example, or municipally owned public housing. The alternative to private property is public property. That kind of thing isn't available because private property owners are the ones calling the shots, and that would undercut their parasitic lifestyle. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Malfeasant@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago (1 child) I disagree, though I know I'll get roasted for it... Landlords do serve a purpose to a point. Not everyone wants to own property. Owning property ties you to a particular place, makes it difficult to leave. If you know you want to stay in an area for the rest of your life, or even just the next 10 years, absolutely, you should be able to buy, and not being able to is a societal failure. But if you don't know where you want to spend the rest of your life, you still need shelter now, and renting provides that, and when you decide to go somewhere else, it's relatively easy. One of my bigger regrets in life was feeling pressured to buy a house in 2005... Just in time for the subprime mortgage crisis. I had a traditional mortgage, but nonetheless, my house went from $150k to <50k in months. I was stuck. Couldn't sell without coming up with extra money to pay off the mortgage, but I wasn't in as bad shape as some people, I could afford the payments, so I couldn't justify walking away, just had to wait for it to rebound, which took another 5 years roughly. Had I been renting, I would have been able to leave much more easily. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 2 points 8 months ago There are ways to meet that particular need without landlords. Tenant unions buying out their apartment building and making it cooperatively owned, for example, or municipally owned public housing. The alternative to private property is public property. That kind of thing isn't available because private property owners are the ones calling the shots, and that would undercut their parasitic lifestyle. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 2 points 8 months ago There are ways to meet that particular need without landlords. Tenant unions buying out their apartment building and making it cooperatively owned, for example, or municipally owned public housing. The alternative to private property is public property. That kind of thing isn't available because private property owners are the ones calling the shots, and that would undercut their parasitic lifestyle. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] deathbird@mander.xyz 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) The kind of squatters that you have to fight in court to get rid of are downtroden in the sense that all petty criminals are downtrodden. In the sense that the guy that robs you at the bus stop is downtrodden even as he treads down on you. Now I don't much give a fuck about people's return on investment and shit, but property, if you actually give a shit about it, is expensive to maintain and repair. That plus an arduous legal process highly incentivizes property owners to capitulate to unjust demands from squatters, much like any other robbery uses a threat of harm to coerce compliance. permalink fedilink source parent