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And all the antivaxxers I ever knew sure like recreational substances too. (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/memes@lemmy.world
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[–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

I'm sorry, but what? Weight gain is most primarily the result of calorie surplus, with genetics playing a major role as well. Telling people to take random vitamins, especially when you don't know the full story of their dietary and micronutrient status is just completely inappropriate and unhelpful.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    That's such a simplistic look at weight gain lol. Wanting food is caused by neurochemicals in your body first before you even eat a bite. Eg Prader-Willis patients gain weight because they have excess ghrellin which makes them super hungry. (It's obvious they do not have Prader-Willis).

    Vitamins are over the counter. We are supposed to eat them every day. Doctors literally ask you if you eat a balanced diet as their first screening question because they are supposed to fix vitamin deficiencies first before treating anything else (lol as if they do that). I think adults, who walk by these same vitamins every day at the store and see ads for them, can read a vague internet comment that they know is a stranger, and know if they should talk to their doctor about their health conditions etc or not. I think they can decide for themselves if they want to try a vitamin regimen, that again, is over the counter and has recommended daily intakes by nutritionists so your body can function.

    Further, there is no overdose range for vitamin k, as in, we haven't found an upper limit where it'll kill you, although if deficient in vitamin e, then blood clots can happen. COQ10 is likewise very safe. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19096117/

    Vitamin E is pretty safe unless you macrodose it every day for a while, and even then, as long as you've got vitamin k (and in some weightlifters do vitamin C) on board it shouldn't be an issue. And again, I never said to macrodose or gave any dose, so why the shaming and policing?

    Last, most overweight people are eating a lot of animal products that contain retinol type vitamin a instead of beta carotene type vitamin a found in plants. Because of the way retinol works, you HAVE to absorb it. To deal with the extra retinol, you need vitamin e and vitamin k, so you start craving fats. Then often people want meat and cheese or a pasta with meat, lasagna, pizza, etc, (which btw I eat too and I eat meat) and yeah they get some vitamin k in that, but not enough vitamin e to deal with the retinol. Which then causes stuff like eczema, allergies, pink irritated skin, dry skin, headache, high blood pressure, nausea, diarrhea - the stuff on the accutane side effects list.

    So the craving continues and feeds itself. I used to be hungry AFTER I ATE and wished I could eat more, and that's not uncommon in people who eat caloric excess - because they actually DO need to eat something else.

    If you take vitamin e, it treats vitamin a overdose symptoms relating to the skin sloughing off and heightened immune system issues. But also vitamin e should be given with vitamin k since vitamin k is relatively benign anyway and helps produce osteocalcin which helps people exercise and want to move/feel good moving.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    Look at my last few comments. I'm well aware of the psychological role and appetite in weight loss, I literally brought it up elsewhere. I didn't bring it up here because it wasn't relevant, I was speaking strictly about the physiological side of weight. It's just basic thermodynamics. If you take in more energy than you use, you're going to accrue a surplus. And if you're burning more energy than you take in, your stores are going to deplete. There might be various factors that attenuate this equation plus or minus, but every real, science-backed, time-tested weight loss plan still respects the central role of calorie management.

    And of all the absurd weight loss strategies I have ever heard of, a handful of fat-soluble vitamins is news to me. It literally just sounds like your own personal anecdote. And aside from it not seeming to have any real evidence behind it, and the issue of it likely not being a broadly helpful protocol for most other people even if it somehow maybe helped you; the issue I take with it is that wherever feasible, a person should get their micronutrients from whole food sources. We evolved eating food, not supplements. The way nutrients interact in our bodies is can in some cases be completely different if they're in an isolated form, than if they're in their intact whole food form. Getting nutrients from food, particularly if you're managing to eat a diversity of foods, also makes it a lot less likely that you're going to overdose on them.

    Which brings me to the other side of that. All of this stuff you're saying about toxicity just sounds like copium. It's especially aggravating because if you ask any nutritional expert, they will tell you straight away that the fat soluble vitamins are exactly the ones you should be most careful with. Those are the ones that accumulate in the body over time, and most easily get to toxic levels.

    Seriously, your advice is irresponsible. You really need to stop, and by the sounds of it, maybe dial down your vitamin doses.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

    Yikes, dawg.

    The brain is the body. They aren't separate.

    I brought up caloric excess in my other comment. I'm aware caloric excess causes weight gain simplisticly, but like I said, that is a simplistic take that ignores eveything else about the body and how people function as bodies. It's a great attitude if you have an eating disorder or want to punish people for being fat though while ignoring their vitamin needs.

    Food cravings are physiological in nature. Why people even WANT to eat when they already know about calories is what matters.

    Foods are made of vitamins, minerals, proteins, carbs, fats (which many are vitamins), and probably stuff I'm not thinking of. Plus we eat stuff like microplastics, dust in the air, lint, whatever incidental things. And then we also have a microbiome that interacts with all this, and that respond adaptively to pathogens, eg hydrogen peroxide producing bacteria, plus the pathogens themselves. We come into contact with pathogens a LOT, and most of the time our immune system just deals with it, it's not a big deal. Same with cancer actually.

    There's stuff going on under the hood, is my point, and we don't know what our cellular buddies are dealing with and if they need more of a certain vitamin or not, they don't burden us with minutiae. We just think, "fuuuuck, a goat cheese hummus salad would slap right now," because biochemical pathways in our brain light up and we start feeling hunger.

    Calories follow basic thermodynamics, yes, but your body is very complex. The goal isn't thin and malnourished and sick, the goal is usually healthy and fit and feeling good.

    And if you’re burning more energy than you take in, your stores are going to deplete

    This is what I mean by simplistic. You wave your hand and say your body is simply "burning energy," when it is actually an endlessly intricate bioelectrochemical dance between entire cities of unicellular life and tiny multicellular life (and some viruses) with whole lives of their own. It's crazy what happens inside us and how we adapt.

    There is actually a lot of literature (like since before the 50s) on fat soluble vitamins and I linked some elsewhere itt for general reading on how it relates to insulin and Ozempic in simple terms. That you don't know that, that I know more than you, is obvious and you should probably stop externalizing. There's also tons of modern dieticians and nutritionists (with doctorates) who practice this exact philosophy, and indeed it is what our entire recommended daily intake is based on.

    Supplements are made from food, especially the ones I listed. Go look at the ingredient labels. And people know they can get vitamins from food and can look that up, as that is common knowledge.

    They don't HAVE to take a stranger's advice lmfao.

    Again there's no safety issues with the supplements I was talking about. I'm aware of which supplements are more dangerous.

    We didn't evolve to breathe car exhaust every day and we do, so maybe there are external oressure we have these days we didn'thave before. 0I think our bodies are very adaptable given the wide range of biomes (incl sun exposure/vitamin d availability) we occupy, and we might need some extra vitamins every now and then. Supplement or whole food, either way.

    People overdose on selenium with brazil nuts pretty often, because it takes so few to overdose and they don't realize. Arctic explorers ate a ton of polar bear liver with 1,000,000 times recommended retinol in one bite, one died and the other's feet sloughed off and almost died. You yourself simply don't eat food sources that will kill you, because everything you eat is from a super market lol and safe. Some whole foods can kill with vitamin dosages and can vary widely in their dose. With supplements, you know the exact amounts and are somewhat less likely to "overdose" based on that alone. Plus, you can take vitamins individually/independently for a while and see how your body responds to know if that specific vitamin is helpful or not, then choose a whole food source once you understand what vitamins you need.

    Drs say that because they don't want you to take retinol in excess or be careless with your doses. It's okay to take a normal daily dose. Some doctors have eating disorders and fat phobia too by the way, and those doctors tend to be pretty ignorant about fat soluble vitamins and nutrition itself. And again, vitamin k has no upper threshold at all. We inject it into newborns at pretty high doses and have since the 60s. You aren't going to get "toxic levels" of vitamin e or coq10 in your body either lol unless you deliberately megadose.

    Ps liver and heart are good whole food sources of these vitamins

    Pss laughable you criticize recommending vitamins when people here want to casually take Ozempic because their favorite anorexic celeb did it and looks great (on tv with filters and editing). And just shows your anger is misplaced

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    I've enjoyed reading this discussion. I would like to contribute that the most significant factor in excessive obesity isn't a typically a nutrient deficiency, or even a moral failing in CICO - it's carbohydrate addiction.

    Yes, hunger can be driven by low-levels of essential nutrition, pica during pregnancy is a great example of that. Many people are over-fed and under-nourished, so when they get hungry they continue to go to their deficient food source (probably something carbohydrate heavy).

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Addictions aren't real, or at least not like how we thought of them in the 90s.

    It is an imbalance of carbohydrates and "bad" fats (no such things but in excess they become "bad") that your body needs other vitamins to deal with. It's not an "addiction," the word is meant to demonize and scare people, and it's fat phobia to call it that imo.

    No food has everything we need in it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Addictions are real things in both my experience and reading - can you explain how they are not real?

    Carbohydrates are not necessary for human nutrition, so there is no such thing as a carbohydrate imbalance.

    Eating saturated fat does not become bad at any level of consumption.

    Meat has everything we need in it, its the perfect food.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    It's a word used to demonize people doing normal human things like consuming things in excess.

    Carbohydrates are a regular source of energy in food that nearly every unicellular and multicellular form of life utilizes, and are evolutionarily ancient. Everything you eat, must be processed and dealt with, and that takes vitamins. Carbohydrates need to be balanced with other nutrients like all nutrients.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9841/

    All cells use adenosine 5′-triphosphate (ATP) as their source of metabolic energy to drive the synthesis of cell constituents and carry out other energy-requiring activities, such as movement (e.g., muscle contraction). The mechanisms used by cells for the generation of ATP are thought to have evolved in three stages, corresponding to the evolution of glycolysis, photosynthesis, and oxidative metabolism (Figure 1.5). The development of these metabolic pathways changed Earth's atmosphere, thereby altering the course of further evolution.

    In the initially anaerobic atmosphere of Earth, the first energy-generating reactions presumably involved the breakdown of organic molecules in the absence of oxygen. These reactions are likely to have been a form of present-day glycolysis—the anaerobic breakdown of glucose to lactic acid, with the net energy gain of two molecules of ATP.

    Fats need to be balanced.

    "Meat" - no, not all meat is the same meat. It's regularly an issue with people feeding their pets a raw diet - they only use muscle meat and no organ meat and the pet becomes malnourished.

    Are you eating thyroid? Thymus? Liver? Heart? Testicles? Ovaries? Brains? These all have different nutrients and hormones in them and we still make medicine today from some of these parts.

    Meat does not have enough vitamin e or vitamin k unless you eat liver, but it also has vitamin a and each liver can have varying amounts of what vitamins are stored in it. Vitamin C is also lacking in an all meat diet devoid of organ meats.

    I know weightlifters who are in their 60s regularly macrodosing vitamin e and vitamin c for this reason and they've won competitions in their younger years and had very few serious injuries compared to others. I'm gunna say these vitamins are necessary and your "meat" argument is lacking.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    normal human things like consuming things in excess.

    Excess and normal are contradicting each other in this sentence.

    Yes cellular metabolism can use glucose, but that glucose in humans does not need to be eaten in the form of carbohydrates, the body is perfectly able to make its own glucose via gluconeogenesis

    Fats need to be balanced.

    What does this mean?

    Vitamin C is also lacking in an all meat diet devoid of organ meats.

    Vitamin C is in meat in small amounts, but if one is eating only meat then there is not glut4 competition and that vitamin c is very effective.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    They are not contradictory.

    Ok so no issue with glucose or carbs in isolation

    I explained above and elsewhere, you'll have to search my history or the thread re balancing fats

    It is not enough vitamin C

    I'm not really interested in debating your eating disorder/orthorexia

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