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[–] 87 points 2 years ago (72 children)

Always remember that the patriarchy harms everyone

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  • [–] 42 points 2 years ago* (27 children)

    An asshole is an asshole is an asshole, don't you dare act like it's not these women's fault if they have no compassion.

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  • [–] 60 points 2 years ago* (6 children)

    Saying something is the result of patriarchy doesn't absolve anybody (including women) of the responsibility for fixing it.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (5 children)

    It's not the result of patriarchy, is the result of them being bad people. They would still exist under a matriarchy or in an equal society.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    “patriarchy” in this context means something other than you think, I.e. it means a system that upholds gender roles that benefit a (majority male) ruler class, e.g. by encouraging worker class men to go to war for their benefit, worker class women to be caretakers, and so on.

    The counterpart to this definition of “patriarchy” is a society with no stratified gender roles, not “matriarchy”.

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  • [–] 33 points 2 years ago* (18 children)

    I never claimed it wasn't. Shitty people are going to be shitty but they feel comfortable being shitty in the way that they are, in public, because the patriarchy has made that normal. I never excused her behavior, I identified it as being connected to a much broader sociological issue.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago* (13 children)

    Hey comrade, I am seriously glad that comment like yours are starting to not be accepted anymore.

    I somehow agree with you, the patriarchy harms everyone. But it does not help anyone to slap it in the face of men who are suffering, and also I disagree that a faceless concept has more responsibility than the people pushing it forward.

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  • [–] 44 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    Honestly, 'patriarchy' is a terrible term that leads to so much confusion. Too many people use it as 'blame men' and forget that it's supposed to be about men being culturally cast as perfect leaders and therefore punished for not meeting those impossible standards.

    I have high hopes that the spreading acceptance of transfolk will start to break down the weird gender roles we've got, and maybe we can talk about some of this stuff more directly.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 years ago

    Thank you for pointing out this. I hat the term 'patriarchy'. I can see the people here using this term are trying to make a point. But it seems to me, that the wording 'patriarchy' hints towards to that ultimately men are to blame. It is also unnerving that feminism tends to excuse problems that women really have is systemic, while trouble that men have is caused by individually shitty behaviour.

    I very much would like a society, where every human regardless of gender is being met with the same empathy.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You know, I hadn't really thought about the benefit that LGBTQ+ acceptance plays in this.

    Of everyone who has been so supportive of me, it's been my queer and non-binary friends.

    I am a straight white male with money. While it upsets me to see women saying stuff like this post, I also know that I am not going to blame the women perpetuating the problem, because they themselves are victims of toxic masculinity and established gender norms.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago

    I have a lot of queer friends (being pansexual myself) and I love the general awareness of mental health at least within my social circle (mainly well educated people throughout their 20s). For example it’s incredibly refreshing not to have to make excuses if you don’t feel like being around people that day, instead just being able to say just that without judgement.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago* (3 children)

    Some women would be shit to men and women and fucking anyone and everyone even if we lived in a matriarchy. Just like some men are shit to everyone and some men and women are nice with everyoneat.

    Assholes are assholes, that's it.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago* (2 children)

    I never advocated for a matriarchy. People will continue to be shitty to eachother but the deconstruction of gender based discrimination and violence would benefit us all. In order to do that we must recognize that what holds us back from this is patriarchy.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    My point still stands, no matter if there's discrimination or not, some people will continue being shit to others and pretending they're shit because of the system we live in is removing all their agency. "It's ok if you're a bad person, it's just because [insert reason that is out of their power]."

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  • [–] 25 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (37 children)

    Stop deflecting blame from shitty women. There are shitty women who do shitty things and "the patriarchy" does not excuse their behavior.

    Stop worshiping the patriarchy. The patriarchy is not God. The patriarchy is not to blame for every shitty thing a shitty woman does.

    Sometimes women are shitty and you make the problem worse by telling everyone it's not their fault because the patriarchy is God in your idiot doctrine.

    Edit: I'm not saying the patriarchy isn't real, it definitely is and should be dismantled. But you need to interrogate your own righteousness or you're just spreading neoliberal schlock to make yourself feel better about how women can be shitty to men.

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  • [–] 68 points 2 years ago* (29 children)

    Women thinking men are icky when they express emotions is because they're taught from a very young age that expressing emotions is feminine and feminine, especially feminine men, is bad. This wasn't a reach to blame on the patriarchy at all.

    The patriarchy isn't "men are harming people all by themselves." It's the gender roles and gender hierarchy that both men and women perpetuate.

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  • [–] 34 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

    I have to push back here and say that I think that the "emotions are feminine" explanation doesn't give the whole picture. There's also instrumentalization of men.

    We're all familiar with objectification, the tendency of (some) men to ignore women's agency, and treat them as objects for their own use. On the flip side, in my experience, (some) women instrumentalize men. That is, treat men as agents to be used as tools to achieve their own goals. As a result, I think that (some) women use men as a bulwark against the stresses and existential terror of human existence, or sometimes even literally, like a bodyguard, or the one who has to deal with the spider in the house.

    You want your vacuum cleaner to suck up dirt when you pull it out of the closet, and then disappear quietly back in there once the job is done. You don't want to have to change the bag, and clean the motor, and replace the belt every time. More metaphorically, you don't want to find out that your emotional ramparts against a scary world are built on sand, and that's what kind of happens when (some) women find out that their partner has fears and weaknesses, too.

    I've heard the same story many, many times from men whose partners begged them to open up emotionally, only to flee once they found out that those emotions included fears and self-doubt. It doesn't make sense that they'd do the first part, if emotions were unattractive, per se.

    (Edit: Missing word.)

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  • [–] 14 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    I think you're quite correct in this analysis as well. Historically, women have often had to depend on a husband for financial security and to be this instrument of protection. This archetype of the provider and protector husband is still baked into our patriarchal culture and leads women who don't deconstruct this attitude to treat their male partners as you describe, and men in straight marriages to feel this burden alone. I've seen it often lead to insecurity and self doubt among husbands who feel they can't live up to this impossible expectation, who also for the reasons widely discussed in this thread don't feel able to express this insecurity and doubt, or are punished for doing so because it goes against their culturally-prescribed gender role of the strong male protector.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago

    It could also be because they view their husband/partner as a means to an end, rather than a person with feelings.

    At some point, the individual needs to take responsibility for their actions, society is made up of individuals after all.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 years ago (6 children)

    If patriarchy is the cause of literally everything in gender interaction, it's not very useful as a concept.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    That's like saying the road is the cause of all car crashes.

    The road is the context in which all (mostly all) crashes occur, its contours or grading maybe contributed to the crash, but it almost never would be the sole cause.

    Most people who just wave their hands and say "patriarchy" are parrots who just know they get a cracker when they say the line. It's resulted in trash discourse.

    It's resulted in people just tuning out when they hear the word, too.

    Kinda sucks, because it's a really useful foundation to talk about society through a certain lens. It'd be hard to talk about traffic if I didn't understand what a road was.

    But, I admit, many people who pipe up with "patriarchy" don't really want to talk any farther, and that does make dealing with those people pretty frustrating. Like if a cop showed up at every crash and excitedly pointed out the existence of a road and then left.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    I am biased because I own (small) parrots who genuinely love crackers, and any reference to that cute behavior is positive for me. But I believe this would be a great metaphor even if I weren't biased in favor of parrots.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago

    It's just the broad description of the gender roles/hierarchy present in our society. Being aware of them and how they negatively impact gender interaction seems fairly useful to me. Usually it's helpful to understand the current structure of something and how that's causing problems to make any meaningful and positive changes.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago

    Edit: I'm not saying the patriarchy isn't real, it definitely is and should be dismantled. But you need to interrogate your own righteousness or you're just spreading neoliberal schlock to make yourself feel better about how women can be shitty to men.

    "neoliberalism is when you want to dismantle patriarchy"

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