▲ 550 ▼ NIST proposes barring some of the most nonsensical password rules (arstechnica.com) submitted 2 years ago by Amicitas@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world 165 comments fedilink hide all child comments Here is the text of the NIST sp800-63b Digital Identity Guidelines.
[+] lvxferre@mander.xyz 337 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (29 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] frezik@midwest.social 117 points 2 years ago (2 children) NIST generally knows what they're doing. Want to overwrite a hard drive securely? NIST 800-88 has you covered. Need a competition for a new block cipher? NIST ran that and AES came out of it. Same for a new hash with SHA3. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago NIST generally knows what they're doing For now, at least. Could change after Inauguration Day. permalink fedilink source parent [–] M500@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago Didn’t know about sha3. permalink fedilink source parent [–] catloaf@lemm.ee 59 points 2 years ago (2 children) I hate that anyone has to be told not to truncate passwords. Like even if you haven't had any training at all, you'd have to be advanced stupid to even come up with that idea in the first place. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] einlander@lemmy.world 24 points 2 years ago (2 children) Microsoft used to do that. I made a password in the late 90's for a we service and I found out that it truncated my password when they made it after it warned my my password was too long when I tried to log in. It truncated at 16 characters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] catloaf@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago (2 children) The weirdest one I found was a site that would only check to see if what you entered started with the correct password. So if your password was hunter2 and you tried hunter246, it would let you in. Which means not only were they storing the password, but they had to go out of their way to use the wrong kind of string comparison. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Amanduh@lemm.ee 8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Can you elaborate further? Why would someone want to truncate passwords to begin with? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) To save a few megabytes of text in a database somewhere. Likely the same database that gets hacked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 28 points 2 years ago (1 child) Which shouldn't even matter because passwords are salted and hashed before storing them, so you're not actually saving anything. At least they better be. If you're not hashing passwords you've got a much bigger problem than low complexity passwords. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 33 points 2 years ago (1 child) The place that truncates passwords is probably not the place to look for best practices when it comes to security. :-) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hashing passwords isn't even best practice at this point, it's the minimally acceptable standard. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] MajorHavoc@programming.dev 52 points 2 years ago* (1 child) Don't truncate passwords for verification. It needed to be said. Because some password system architects have been just that stupid. Edit: Fear of other's stupidity is the mind killer. I will face my fear. My fear will wash over me, and when it has passed, only I will remain. Or I'll be dead in a car accident caused by an AI driver. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Dhs92@programming.dev 53 points 2 years ago (3 children) I've seen sites truncate when setting, but not on checking. So you set a password on a site with no stated limit, go to use said password, and get locked out. It's infuriating permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Ashelyn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 2 years ago* Years back, I had that happen on PayPal of all websites. Their account creation and reset pages silently and automatically truncated my password to 16 chars or something before hashing, but the actual login page didn't, so the password didn't work at all unless I backspaced it to the character limit. I forgot how I even found that out but it was a very frustrating few hours. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pivot_root@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sounds like my bank. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Banks usually have the absolute worst password policies. It's typically because their backend is some crusty mainframe from the 80s that limits inputs to something absurdly insecure by today's standards and they've kicked the upgrade can down the road for so long now that it's a staggeringly monumental task to rewrite it all. Thankfully most of them have upgraded at this point, but every now and then you still find one that's got ridiculous limits like a maximum password length of 8 and only alphanumeric characters (with no 2FA obviously). permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago Another ridiculous policy I've seen (many years ago) is logging in too fast. I used to get locked out of my banks website all the time and I used autotype with KeePass so I was baffled when it wouldn't get accepted. Eventually I had a thought to slow down the typing mechanism and suddenly I didn't get locked out anymore. permalink fedilink source parent [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago* (1 child) Don’t bug users to change passwords periodically. Only do it if there’s evidence of compromise. This is a big one. Especially in corporate environments where most of the users are, shall we say, not tech savvy. Forcing people to comply with byzantine incomprehensible password composition rules plus incessantly insisting that they change their password every 7/14/30 days to a new inscrutable string that looks like somebody sneezed in punctuation marks accomplishes nothing other than enticing everyone to just write their password down on a Post-It and stick it to their monitor or under their keyboard. Remember: Users do not care about passwords. From the perspective of anyone who isn't a programmer or a security expert, passwords are just yet another exasperating roadblock some nerd keeps putting in front of them that is preventing them from doing whatever it is they were actually trying to do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 32 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (2 children) That works great until some dickhole implements the old, "New password cannot contain any sequence from your previous (5) passwords." This also of course necessitates storing (multiple successive!) passwords in plain text or with a reversible cipher, which is another stupid move. You'd think we'd have gotten all of this out of our collective system as a society by now, and yet I still see it all the time. All of these schemes are just security theater, and actively make the system in question less secure while accomplishing nothing other than berating and frustrating its users. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] dgmib@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago* This also leads to stupid rules like you can’t change your password more than once a day, to prevent someone from changing their password 5 times and then changing it back to what it was before. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Flying_Hellfish@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago* "I just increment the number at the end" is a phrase I've heard so many times permalink fedilink source parent [–] magic_smoke@links.hackliberty.org 19 points 2 years ago NIST are bureaucrats sure, but bureaucrats with lots and lots of practical experience. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Tanoh@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago Only issue I see is that the 8 chars required is very short and easy to brute force. You would hope that people would go for the recommended instead, but doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] perviouslyiner@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago (2 children) re #7, I hope they are also saying no 'secret questions' to reset the password? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yeah, I think 7 and 8 both cover that. I recently signed up for an account where all of the "security questions" provided asked about things that could be either looked up or reasonably guessed based on looked up information. We live in a tech world designed for the technically illiterate. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] eronth@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (2 children) I usually invent answers to those and store those answers in a password manager. Essentially turns them into backup passwords that can be spoken over the phone if necessary. Where was I born? "Stallheim, EUSA, Mars" Name of first pet? "Groovy Tuesday" It's fun, usually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago I tried that without a password manager for a little while. But then my answers were too abstract to remember, so now I also use a password manager for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] subtext@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (1 child) What is the first name of your first best friend? eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq Oh old eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq and I go way back! I met eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq in Pre-K and we’ve been inseparable ever since. It is quite annoying if they’re a service that makes you read aloud your security questions to phone reps to prove your identity. One of my retirement accounts requires that and I have to sigh and read out the full string. I’ve changed it since to an all lowercase, 20 digit string as a compromise. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* 20 character all lowercase is very secure as long as its random words / letters that would make it unguessable by knowing you. Edit: you could also prefix it if you think you'd have to read it "This question is stupid fuck nuts house gravel neptune cow." permalink fedilink source parent [–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sarah Palin had her Yahoo mail account hacked because of those "security" questions. In 2008. We should be well past the time where they are a thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] hamsterkill@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 2 years ago I was expecting idiotic rules screaming "bureaucratic muppets don't know what they're legislating on", but instead what I'm seeing is surprisingly sane and sensible NIST knows what they're doing. It's getting organizations to adapt that's hard. NIST has recommended against expiring passwords for like a decade already, for example, yet pretty much every IT dept still has passwords expiring at least once a year. permalink fedilink source parent [+] cybersandwich@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] lvxferre@mander.xyz 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 month ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] General_Effort@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (1 child) You should accept Unicode; if doing so, you must count each code as one char. Hmm. I wonder about this one. Different ways to encode the same character. Different ways to calculate the length. No obvious max byte size. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) Who cares? It's going to be hashed anyway. If the same user can generate the same input, it will result in the same hash. If another user can't generate the same input, well, that's really rather the point. And I can't think of a single backend, language, or framework that doesn't treat a single Unicode character as one character. Byte length of the character is irrelevant as long as you're not doing something ridiculous like intentionally parsing your input in binary and blithely assuming that every character must be 8 bits in length. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago It matters for bcrypt/scrypt. They have a 72 byte limit. Not characters, bytes. That said, I also think it doesn't matter much. Reasonable length passphrases that could be covered by the old Latin-1 charset can easily fit in that. If you're talking about KJC languages, then each character is actually a whole word, and you're packing a lot of entropy into one character. 72 bytes is already beyond what's needed for security; it's diminishing returns at that point. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (19 replies)
[–] frezik@midwest.social 117 points 2 years ago (2 children) NIST generally knows what they're doing. Want to overwrite a hard drive securely? NIST 800-88 has you covered. Need a competition for a new block cipher? NIST ran that and AES came out of it. Same for a new hash with SHA3. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago NIST generally knows what they're doing For now, at least. Could change after Inauguration Day. permalink fedilink source parent [–] M500@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago Didn’t know about sha3. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grue@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago NIST generally knows what they're doing For now, at least. Could change after Inauguration Day. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 59 points 2 years ago (2 children) I hate that anyone has to be told not to truncate passwords. Like even if you haven't had any training at all, you'd have to be advanced stupid to even come up with that idea in the first place. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] einlander@lemmy.world 24 points 2 years ago (2 children) Microsoft used to do that. I made a password in the late 90's for a we service and I found out that it truncated my password when they made it after it warned my my password was too long when I tried to log in. It truncated at 16 characters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] catloaf@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago (2 children) The weirdest one I found was a site that would only check to see if what you entered started with the correct password. So if your password was hunter2 and you tried hunter246, it would let you in. Which means not only were they storing the password, but they had to go out of their way to use the wrong kind of string comparison. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Amanduh@lemm.ee 8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Can you elaborate further? Why would someone want to truncate passwords to begin with? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) To save a few megabytes of text in a database somewhere. Likely the same database that gets hacked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 28 points 2 years ago (1 child) Which shouldn't even matter because passwords are salted and hashed before storing them, so you're not actually saving anything. At least they better be. If you're not hashing passwords you've got a much bigger problem than low complexity passwords. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 33 points 2 years ago (1 child) The place that truncates passwords is probably not the place to look for best practices when it comes to security. :-) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hashing passwords isn't even best practice at this point, it's the minimally acceptable standard. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] einlander@lemmy.world 24 points 2 years ago (2 children) Microsoft used to do that. I made a password in the late 90's for a we service and I found out that it truncated my password when they made it after it warned my my password was too long when I tried to log in. It truncated at 16 characters. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] catloaf@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago (2 children) The weirdest one I found was a site that would only check to see if what you entered started with the correct password. So if your password was hunter2 and you tried hunter246, it would let you in. Which means not only were they storing the password, but they had to go out of their way to use the wrong kind of string comparison. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago (2 children) The weirdest one I found was a site that would only check to see if what you entered started with the correct password. So if your password was hunter2 and you tried hunter246, it would let you in. Which means not only were they storing the password, but they had to go out of their way to use the wrong kind of string comparison. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Amanduh@lemm.ee 8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Can you elaborate further? Why would someone want to truncate passwords to begin with? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) To save a few megabytes of text in a database somewhere. Likely the same database that gets hacked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 28 points 2 years ago (1 child) Which shouldn't even matter because passwords are salted and hashed before storing them, so you're not actually saving anything. At least they better be. If you're not hashing passwords you've got a much bigger problem than low complexity passwords. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 33 points 2 years ago (1 child) The place that truncates passwords is probably not the place to look for best practices when it comes to security. :-) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hashing passwords isn't even best practice at this point, it's the minimally acceptable standard. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) To save a few megabytes of text in a database somewhere. Likely the same database that gets hacked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 28 points 2 years ago (1 child) Which shouldn't even matter because passwords are salted and hashed before storing them, so you're not actually saving anything. At least they better be. If you're not hashing passwords you've got a much bigger problem than low complexity passwords. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 33 points 2 years ago (1 child) The place that truncates passwords is probably not the place to look for best practices when it comes to security. :-) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hashing passwords isn't even best practice at this point, it's the minimally acceptable standard. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] orclev@lemmy.world 28 points 2 years ago (1 child) Which shouldn't even matter because passwords are salted and hashed before storing them, so you're not actually saving anything. At least they better be. If you're not hashing passwords you've got a much bigger problem than low complexity passwords. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 33 points 2 years ago (1 child) The place that truncates passwords is probably not the place to look for best practices when it comes to security. :-) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hashing passwords isn't even best practice at this point, it's the minimally acceptable standard. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments load more comments (12 replies)
[–] essteeyou@lemmy.world 33 points 2 years ago (1 child) The place that truncates passwords is probably not the place to look for best practices when it comes to security. :-) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hashing passwords isn't even best practice at this point, it's the minimally acceptable standard. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments load more comments (12 replies)
[–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (12 children) Hashing passwords isn't even best practice at this point, it's the minimally acceptable standard. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments load more comments (12 replies)
[–] MajorHavoc@programming.dev 52 points 2 years ago* (1 child) Don't truncate passwords for verification. It needed to be said. Because some password system architects have been just that stupid. Edit: Fear of other's stupidity is the mind killer. I will face my fear. My fear will wash over me, and when it has passed, only I will remain. Or I'll be dead in a car accident caused by an AI driver. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Dhs92@programming.dev 53 points 2 years ago (3 children) I've seen sites truncate when setting, but not on checking. So you set a password on a site with no stated limit, go to use said password, and get locked out. It's infuriating permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Ashelyn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 2 years ago* Years back, I had that happen on PayPal of all websites. Their account creation and reset pages silently and automatically truncated my password to 16 chars or something before hashing, but the actual login page didn't, so the password didn't work at all unless I backspaced it to the character limit. I forgot how I even found that out but it was a very frustrating few hours. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pivot_root@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sounds like my bank. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Banks usually have the absolute worst password policies. It's typically because their backend is some crusty mainframe from the 80s that limits inputs to something absurdly insecure by today's standards and they've kicked the upgrade can down the road for so long now that it's a staggeringly monumental task to rewrite it all. Thankfully most of them have upgraded at this point, but every now and then you still find one that's got ridiculous limits like a maximum password length of 8 and only alphanumeric characters (with no 2FA obviously). permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago Another ridiculous policy I've seen (many years ago) is logging in too fast. I used to get locked out of my banks website all the time and I used autotype with KeePass so I was baffled when it wouldn't get accepted. Eventually I had a thought to slow down the typing mechanism and suddenly I didn't get locked out anymore. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Dhs92@programming.dev 53 points 2 years ago (3 children) I've seen sites truncate when setting, but not on checking. So you set a password on a site with no stated limit, go to use said password, and get locked out. It's infuriating permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Ashelyn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 2 years ago* Years back, I had that happen on PayPal of all websites. Their account creation and reset pages silently and automatically truncated my password to 16 chars or something before hashing, but the actual login page didn't, so the password didn't work at all unless I backspaced it to the character limit. I forgot how I even found that out but it was a very frustrating few hours. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pivot_root@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sounds like my bank. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Banks usually have the absolute worst password policies. It's typically because their backend is some crusty mainframe from the 80s that limits inputs to something absurdly insecure by today's standards and they've kicked the upgrade can down the road for so long now that it's a staggeringly monumental task to rewrite it all. Thankfully most of them have upgraded at this point, but every now and then you still find one that's got ridiculous limits like a maximum password length of 8 and only alphanumeric characters (with no 2FA obviously). permalink fedilink source parent [–] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago Another ridiculous policy I've seen (many years ago) is logging in too fast. I used to get locked out of my banks website all the time and I used autotype with KeePass so I was baffled when it wouldn't get accepted. Eventually I had a thought to slow down the typing mechanism and suddenly I didn't get locked out anymore. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Ashelyn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 2 years ago* Years back, I had that happen on PayPal of all websites. Their account creation and reset pages silently and automatically truncated my password to 16 chars or something before hashing, but the actual login page didn't, so the password didn't work at all unless I backspaced it to the character limit. I forgot how I even found that out but it was a very frustrating few hours. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] pivot_root@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sounds like my bank. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Banks usually have the absolute worst password policies. It's typically because their backend is some crusty mainframe from the 80s that limits inputs to something absurdly insecure by today's standards and they've kicked the upgrade can down the road for so long now that it's a staggeringly monumental task to rewrite it all. Thankfully most of them have upgraded at this point, but every now and then you still find one that's got ridiculous limits like a maximum password length of 8 and only alphanumeric characters (with no 2FA obviously). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Banks usually have the absolute worst password policies. It's typically because their backend is some crusty mainframe from the 80s that limits inputs to something absurdly insecure by today's standards and they've kicked the upgrade can down the road for so long now that it's a staggeringly monumental task to rewrite it all. Thankfully most of them have upgraded at this point, but every now and then you still find one that's got ridiculous limits like a maximum password length of 8 and only alphanumeric characters (with no 2FA obviously). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago Another ridiculous policy I've seen (many years ago) is logging in too fast. I used to get locked out of my banks website all the time and I used autotype with KeePass so I was baffled when it wouldn't get accepted. Eventually I had a thought to slow down the typing mechanism and suddenly I didn't get locked out anymore. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago* (1 child) Don’t bug users to change passwords periodically. Only do it if there’s evidence of compromise. This is a big one. Especially in corporate environments where most of the users are, shall we say, not tech savvy. Forcing people to comply with byzantine incomprehensible password composition rules plus incessantly insisting that they change their password every 7/14/30 days to a new inscrutable string that looks like somebody sneezed in punctuation marks accomplishes nothing other than enticing everyone to just write their password down on a Post-It and stick it to their monitor or under their keyboard. Remember: Users do not care about passwords. From the perspective of anyone who isn't a programmer or a security expert, passwords are just yet another exasperating roadblock some nerd keeps putting in front of them that is preventing them from doing whatever it is they were actually trying to do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 32 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (2 children) That works great until some dickhole implements the old, "New password cannot contain any sequence from your previous (5) passwords." This also of course necessitates storing (multiple successive!) passwords in plain text or with a reversible cipher, which is another stupid move. You'd think we'd have gotten all of this out of our collective system as a society by now, and yet I still see it all the time. All of these schemes are just security theater, and actively make the system in question less secure while accomplishing nothing other than berating and frustrating its users. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] dgmib@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago* This also leads to stupid rules like you can’t change your password more than once a day, to prevent someone from changing their password 5 times and then changing it back to what it was before. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Flying_Hellfish@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago* "I just increment the number at the end" is a phrase I've heard so many times permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 32 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (2 children) That works great until some dickhole implements the old, "New password cannot contain any sequence from your previous (5) passwords." This also of course necessitates storing (multiple successive!) passwords in plain text or with a reversible cipher, which is another stupid move. You'd think we'd have gotten all of this out of our collective system as a society by now, and yet I still see it all the time. All of these schemes are just security theater, and actively make the system in question less secure while accomplishing nothing other than berating and frustrating its users. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] dgmib@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago* This also leads to stupid rules like you can’t change your password more than once a day, to prevent someone from changing their password 5 times and then changing it back to what it was before. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Flying_Hellfish@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago* "I just increment the number at the end" is a phrase I've heard so many times permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (2 children) That works great until some dickhole implements the old, "New password cannot contain any sequence from your previous (5) passwords." This also of course necessitates storing (multiple successive!) passwords in plain text or with a reversible cipher, which is another stupid move. You'd think we'd have gotten all of this out of our collective system as a society by now, and yet I still see it all the time. All of these schemes are just security theater, and actively make the system in question less secure while accomplishing nothing other than berating and frustrating its users. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] dgmib@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago* This also leads to stupid rules like you can’t change your password more than once a day, to prevent someone from changing their password 5 times and then changing it back to what it was before. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Starbuncle@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dgmib@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago* This also leads to stupid rules like you can’t change your password more than once a day, to prevent someone from changing their password 5 times and then changing it back to what it was before. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Flying_Hellfish@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago* "I just increment the number at the end" is a phrase I've heard so many times permalink fedilink source parent
[–] magic_smoke@links.hackliberty.org 19 points 2 years ago NIST are bureaucrats sure, but bureaucrats with lots and lots of practical experience. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tanoh@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago Only issue I see is that the 8 chars required is very short and easy to brute force. You would hope that people would go for the recommended instead, but doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] perviouslyiner@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago (2 children) re #7, I hope they are also saying no 'secret questions' to reset the password? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yeah, I think 7 and 8 both cover that. I recently signed up for an account where all of the "security questions" provided asked about things that could be either looked up or reasonably guessed based on looked up information. We live in a tech world designed for the technically illiterate. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] eronth@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (2 children) I usually invent answers to those and store those answers in a password manager. Essentially turns them into backup passwords that can be spoken over the phone if necessary. Where was I born? "Stallheim, EUSA, Mars" Name of first pet? "Groovy Tuesday" It's fun, usually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago I tried that without a password manager for a little while. But then my answers were too abstract to remember, so now I also use a password manager for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] subtext@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (1 child) What is the first name of your first best friend? eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq Oh old eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq and I go way back! I met eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq in Pre-K and we’ve been inseparable ever since. It is quite annoying if they’re a service that makes you read aloud your security questions to phone reps to prove your identity. One of my retirement accounts requires that and I have to sigh and read out the full string. I’ve changed it since to an all lowercase, 20 digit string as a compromise. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* 20 character all lowercase is very secure as long as its random words / letters that would make it unguessable by knowing you. Edit: you could also prefix it if you think you'd have to read it "This question is stupid fuck nuts house gravel neptune cow." permalink fedilink source parent [–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sarah Palin had her Yahoo mail account hacked because of those "security" questions. In 2008. We should be well past the time where they are a thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yeah, I think 7 and 8 both cover that. I recently signed up for an account where all of the "security questions" provided asked about things that could be either looked up or reasonably guessed based on looked up information. We live in a tech world designed for the technically illiterate. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] eronth@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (2 children) I usually invent answers to those and store those answers in a password manager. Essentially turns them into backup passwords that can be spoken over the phone if necessary. Where was I born? "Stallheim, EUSA, Mars" Name of first pet? "Groovy Tuesday" It's fun, usually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago I tried that without a password manager for a little while. But then my answers were too abstract to remember, so now I also use a password manager for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] subtext@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (1 child) What is the first name of your first best friend? eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq Oh old eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq and I go way back! I met eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq in Pre-K and we’ve been inseparable ever since. It is quite annoying if they’re a service that makes you read aloud your security questions to phone reps to prove your identity. One of my retirement accounts requires that and I have to sigh and read out the full string. I’ve changed it since to an all lowercase, 20 digit string as a compromise. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* 20 character all lowercase is very secure as long as its random words / letters that would make it unguessable by knowing you. Edit: you could also prefix it if you think you'd have to read it "This question is stupid fuck nuts house gravel neptune cow." permalink fedilink source parent [–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sarah Palin had her Yahoo mail account hacked because of those "security" questions. In 2008. We should be well past the time where they are a thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] eronth@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (2 children) I usually invent answers to those and store those answers in a password manager. Essentially turns them into backup passwords that can be spoken over the phone if necessary. Where was I born? "Stallheim, EUSA, Mars" Name of first pet? "Groovy Tuesday" It's fun, usually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago I tried that without a password manager for a little while. But then my answers were too abstract to remember, so now I also use a password manager for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] subtext@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (1 child) What is the first name of your first best friend? eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq Oh old eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq and I go way back! I met eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq in Pre-K and we’ve been inseparable ever since. It is quite annoying if they’re a service that makes you read aloud your security questions to phone reps to prove your identity. One of my retirement accounts requires that and I have to sigh and read out the full string. I’ve changed it since to an all lowercase, 20 digit string as a compromise. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* 20 character all lowercase is very secure as long as its random words / letters that would make it unguessable by knowing you. Edit: you could also prefix it if you think you'd have to read it "This question is stupid fuck nuts house gravel neptune cow." permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago I tried that without a password manager for a little while. But then my answers were too abstract to remember, so now I also use a password manager for that. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] subtext@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (1 child) What is the first name of your first best friend? eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq Oh old eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq and I go way back! I met eoY&Z9m4LNRDY!Gzdd%q98LYiBi8Nq in Pre-K and we’ve been inseparable ever since. It is quite annoying if they’re a service that makes you read aloud your security questions to phone reps to prove your identity. One of my retirement accounts requires that and I have to sigh and read out the full string. I’ve changed it since to an all lowercase, 20 digit string as a compromise. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* 20 character all lowercase is very secure as long as its random words / letters that would make it unguessable by knowing you. Edit: you could also prefix it if you think you'd have to read it "This question is stupid fuck nuts house gravel neptune cow." permalink fedilink source parent
[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* 20 character all lowercase is very secure as long as its random words / letters that would make it unguessable by knowing you. Edit: you could also prefix it if you think you'd have to read it "This question is stupid fuck nuts house gravel neptune cow." permalink fedilink source parent
[–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sarah Palin had her Yahoo mail account hacked because of those "security" questions. In 2008. We should be well past the time where they are a thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] hamsterkill@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 2 years ago I was expecting idiotic rules screaming "bureaucratic muppets don't know what they're legislating on", but instead what I'm seeing is surprisingly sane and sensible NIST knows what they're doing. It's getting organizations to adapt that's hard. NIST has recommended against expiring passwords for like a decade already, for example, yet pretty much every IT dept still has passwords expiring at least once a year. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] cybersandwich@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] lvxferre@mander.xyz 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 month ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] lvxferre@mander.xyz 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 month ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] General_Effort@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (1 child) You should accept Unicode; if doing so, you must count each code as one char. Hmm. I wonder about this one. Different ways to encode the same character. Different ways to calculate the length. No obvious max byte size. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) Who cares? It's going to be hashed anyway. If the same user can generate the same input, it will result in the same hash. If another user can't generate the same input, well, that's really rather the point. And I can't think of a single backend, language, or framework that doesn't treat a single Unicode character as one character. Byte length of the character is irrelevant as long as you're not doing something ridiculous like intentionally parsing your input in binary and blithely assuming that every character must be 8 bits in length. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago It matters for bcrypt/scrypt. They have a 72 byte limit. Not characters, bytes. That said, I also think it doesn't matter much. Reasonable length passphrases that could be covered by the old Latin-1 charset can easily fit in that. If you're talking about KJC languages, then each character is actually a whole word, and you're packing a lot of entropy into one character. 72 bytes is already beyond what's needed for security; it's diminishing returns at that point. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) Who cares? It's going to be hashed anyway. If the same user can generate the same input, it will result in the same hash. If another user can't generate the same input, well, that's really rather the point. And I can't think of a single backend, language, or framework that doesn't treat a single Unicode character as one character. Byte length of the character is irrelevant as long as you're not doing something ridiculous like intentionally parsing your input in binary and blithely assuming that every character must be 8 bits in length. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago It matters for bcrypt/scrypt. They have a 72 byte limit. Not characters, bytes. That said, I also think it doesn't matter much. Reasonable length passphrases that could be covered by the old Latin-1 charset can easily fit in that. If you're talking about KJC languages, then each character is actually a whole word, and you're packing a lot of entropy into one character. 72 bytes is already beyond what's needed for security; it's diminishing returns at that point. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago It matters for bcrypt/scrypt. They have a 72 byte limit. Not characters, bytes. That said, I also think it doesn't matter much. Reasonable length passphrases that could be covered by the old Latin-1 charset can easily fit in that. If you're talking about KJC languages, then each character is actually a whole word, and you're packing a lot of entropy into one character. 72 bytes is already beyond what's needed for security; it's diminishing returns at that point. permalink fedilink source parent