▲ 1562 ▼ How i feel on Lemmy (programming.dev) submitted 3 years ago by sizeoftheuniverse@programming.dev to c/memes@lemmy.ml 1045 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml 30 points 3 years ago (2 children) Meanwhile, Eastern Europeans: permalink fedilink source hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] cudla100@lemmy.world 11 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (4 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] motherr@lemmy.world 13 points 3 years ago (1 child) The sources are quite literally listed and in some countries more than 50% said no. Sounds like your grandparents are some of the no's represented in the data. I'm not sure what point you think you're making? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago If you read the actual articals, they're not saying they want to return to communism, like at all. They're saying they're not satisfied with the EUs extent of democracy, and want to become more democratic. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 3 years ago A country goes far beyond one's own surname. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago (1 child) I don't have the sources for that specific graph but I do have this one showing 7 out of 11 former soviet countries saying it: https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...did you read this whole thing? Or just take the numbers and run with it? Overall, residents who are more educated are less likely to say the collapse harmed their country and more likely to say it benefited them. Kyrgyzstan is the exception. Residents who say that "most people" in their country are afraid to openly express their political views are more likely to say that the collapse harmed their country than those who say that "no one" is afraid. This suggests the freedom they thought they might have after the fall of the Soviet Union has not materialized -- and in some cases, the situation may be even worse. Under the strict regime in Tajikistan, for example, 61% of those who say most people are afraid also say the breakup hurt their country, compared with 35% of those who say no one is afraid. Also: Overall, residents who see opportunities for their children and themselves to succeed are more likely to say the breakup benefited their country than those who do not. Thirty percent of residents of these former republics who say children in their country have the opportunity to learn and grow say their country benefited, compared with 18% who do not think children have this opportunity. And in all countries, residents who say people in their countries can get ahead through hard work are twice as likely to say their country benefited (29%) than those who do not think they can get ahead (17%) How is any of this proof that these countries should return to communism? It sounds like education, freedom of political expression and those who see opportunity in themselves and their children are all factors in people turning their backs to communism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world -2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them I just quoted literally verbatim what the pollers said. You can deep dive looking for cope all you want but the fact remains that people see the change to capitalism as making their countries worse. If you want to get more upset you can read my other longer comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 years ago (1 child) I'm not upset. :) I did go back and go through what you posted. At the end of the article about Hungary. There's a "read more" link, which expands the article to include this: However, these findings do not mean Hungarians are rejecting democratic values. In fact, as the survey illustrates, they are more likely than other former Eastern bloc publics to say it is very important to live in a country with democratic rights and institutions. But few believe Hungary currently has these democratic freedoms. However, when reviewing these gloomy findings about the state of democracy in Hungary, it is worth remembering that they do not mean Hungarians are abandoning democratic values. To the contrary, Hungarians continue to want democratic rights and institutions — in fact, they place a higher premium on these things than their post-communist neighbors. When asked to rate the importance of six key features of democracy, Hungarians stand out for their strong embrace of democratic values. The challenge for Hungary is that, while most Hungarians want democratic values and institutions, few think they have them. For instance, 70% think it is very important to live in a country with honest multiparty elections, but only 17% believe this describes Hungary very well. Taking the median percentage saying these values are very important in each country and comparing it with the median percentage saying these values describe their country very well gives us an overall “democracy gap” for each country. The gap is large throughout Eastern Europe, but is widest in Hungary — evidence that Hungarians, who once pioneered the transition away from communism, are not turning their backs on democracy. Instead, they are frustrated by the fact that democracy has yet to fully flourish in their country. So they absolutely aren't saying they want to return to communism. Like, at all. They're just frustrated that joining the EU isn't the democratic form of governance they were hopping for, and are dissatisfied with that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm) Completely goes against the point being made by this meme. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent [–] FluffyPotato@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) I also like how there's no data for like the most anti soviet regions. Searching for the source at the bottom only gave me the same picture in a ifunny post so I'm assuming this is bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago* I literally showed you several of the sources for this FIVE HOURS before you made this comment claiming they don't exist and it's bullshit. This is what I mean with you people. You just LIE. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 3 years ago The famously anti-soviet country of Belarus, unlike the extremely pro-soviet regimes of Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania. permalink fedilink source parent [–] trimmerfrost@lemm.ee 1 point 3 years ago The people who denied are dead /s permalink fedilink source parent
[+] cudla100@lemmy.world 11 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (4 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] motherr@lemmy.world 13 points 3 years ago (1 child) The sources are quite literally listed and in some countries more than 50% said no. Sounds like your grandparents are some of the no's represented in the data. I'm not sure what point you think you're making? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago If you read the actual articals, they're not saying they want to return to communism, like at all. They're saying they're not satisfied with the EUs extent of democracy, and want to become more democratic. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 3 years ago A country goes far beyond one's own surname. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago (1 child) I don't have the sources for that specific graph but I do have this one showing 7 out of 11 former soviet countries saying it: https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...did you read this whole thing? Or just take the numbers and run with it? Overall, residents who are more educated are less likely to say the collapse harmed their country and more likely to say it benefited them. Kyrgyzstan is the exception. Residents who say that "most people" in their country are afraid to openly express their political views are more likely to say that the collapse harmed their country than those who say that "no one" is afraid. This suggests the freedom they thought they might have after the fall of the Soviet Union has not materialized -- and in some cases, the situation may be even worse. Under the strict regime in Tajikistan, for example, 61% of those who say most people are afraid also say the breakup hurt their country, compared with 35% of those who say no one is afraid. Also: Overall, residents who see opportunities for their children and themselves to succeed are more likely to say the breakup benefited their country than those who do not. Thirty percent of residents of these former republics who say children in their country have the opportunity to learn and grow say their country benefited, compared with 18% who do not think children have this opportunity. And in all countries, residents who say people in their countries can get ahead through hard work are twice as likely to say their country benefited (29%) than those who do not think they can get ahead (17%) How is any of this proof that these countries should return to communism? It sounds like education, freedom of political expression and those who see opportunity in themselves and their children are all factors in people turning their backs to communism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world -2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them I just quoted literally verbatim what the pollers said. You can deep dive looking for cope all you want but the fact remains that people see the change to capitalism as making their countries worse. If you want to get more upset you can read my other longer comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 years ago (1 child) I'm not upset. :) I did go back and go through what you posted. At the end of the article about Hungary. There's a "read more" link, which expands the article to include this: However, these findings do not mean Hungarians are rejecting democratic values. In fact, as the survey illustrates, they are more likely than other former Eastern bloc publics to say it is very important to live in a country with democratic rights and institutions. But few believe Hungary currently has these democratic freedoms. However, when reviewing these gloomy findings about the state of democracy in Hungary, it is worth remembering that they do not mean Hungarians are abandoning democratic values. To the contrary, Hungarians continue to want democratic rights and institutions — in fact, they place a higher premium on these things than their post-communist neighbors. When asked to rate the importance of six key features of democracy, Hungarians stand out for their strong embrace of democratic values. The challenge for Hungary is that, while most Hungarians want democratic values and institutions, few think they have them. For instance, 70% think it is very important to live in a country with honest multiparty elections, but only 17% believe this describes Hungary very well. Taking the median percentage saying these values are very important in each country and comparing it with the median percentage saying these values describe their country very well gives us an overall “democracy gap” for each country. The gap is large throughout Eastern Europe, but is widest in Hungary — evidence that Hungarians, who once pioneered the transition away from communism, are not turning their backs on democracy. Instead, they are frustrated by the fact that democracy has yet to fully flourish in their country. So they absolutely aren't saying they want to return to communism. Like, at all. They're just frustrated that joining the EU isn't the democratic form of governance they were hopping for, and are dissatisfied with that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm) Completely goes against the point being made by this meme. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent [–] FluffyPotato@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) I also like how there's no data for like the most anti soviet regions. Searching for the source at the bottom only gave me the same picture in a ifunny post so I'm assuming this is bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago* I literally showed you several of the sources for this FIVE HOURS before you made this comment claiming they don't exist and it's bullshit. This is what I mean with you people. You just LIE. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 3 years ago The famously anti-soviet country of Belarus, unlike the extremely pro-soviet regimes of Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] motherr@lemmy.world 13 points 3 years ago (1 child) The sources are quite literally listed and in some countries more than 50% said no. Sounds like your grandparents are some of the no's represented in the data. I'm not sure what point you think you're making? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago If you read the actual articals, they're not saying they want to return to communism, like at all. They're saying they're not satisfied with the EUs extent of democracy, and want to become more democratic. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago If you read the actual articals, they're not saying they want to return to communism, like at all. They're saying they're not satisfied with the EUs extent of democracy, and want to become more democratic. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 3 years ago A country goes far beyond one's own surname. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago (1 child) I don't have the sources for that specific graph but I do have this one showing 7 out of 11 former soviet countries saying it: https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...did you read this whole thing? Or just take the numbers and run with it? Overall, residents who are more educated are less likely to say the collapse harmed their country and more likely to say it benefited them. Kyrgyzstan is the exception. Residents who say that "most people" in their country are afraid to openly express their political views are more likely to say that the collapse harmed their country than those who say that "no one" is afraid. This suggests the freedom they thought they might have after the fall of the Soviet Union has not materialized -- and in some cases, the situation may be even worse. Under the strict regime in Tajikistan, for example, 61% of those who say most people are afraid also say the breakup hurt their country, compared with 35% of those who say no one is afraid. Also: Overall, residents who see opportunities for their children and themselves to succeed are more likely to say the breakup benefited their country than those who do not. Thirty percent of residents of these former republics who say children in their country have the opportunity to learn and grow say their country benefited, compared with 18% who do not think children have this opportunity. And in all countries, residents who say people in their countries can get ahead through hard work are twice as likely to say their country benefited (29%) than those who do not think they can get ahead (17%) How is any of this proof that these countries should return to communism? It sounds like education, freedom of political expression and those who see opportunity in themselves and their children are all factors in people turning their backs to communism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world -2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them I just quoted literally verbatim what the pollers said. You can deep dive looking for cope all you want but the fact remains that people see the change to capitalism as making their countries worse. If you want to get more upset you can read my other longer comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 years ago (1 child) I'm not upset. :) I did go back and go through what you posted. At the end of the article about Hungary. There's a "read more" link, which expands the article to include this: However, these findings do not mean Hungarians are rejecting democratic values. In fact, as the survey illustrates, they are more likely than other former Eastern bloc publics to say it is very important to live in a country with democratic rights and institutions. But few believe Hungary currently has these democratic freedoms. However, when reviewing these gloomy findings about the state of democracy in Hungary, it is worth remembering that they do not mean Hungarians are abandoning democratic values. To the contrary, Hungarians continue to want democratic rights and institutions — in fact, they place a higher premium on these things than their post-communist neighbors. When asked to rate the importance of six key features of democracy, Hungarians stand out for their strong embrace of democratic values. The challenge for Hungary is that, while most Hungarians want democratic values and institutions, few think they have them. For instance, 70% think it is very important to live in a country with honest multiparty elections, but only 17% believe this describes Hungary very well. Taking the median percentage saying these values are very important in each country and comparing it with the median percentage saying these values describe their country very well gives us an overall “democracy gap” for each country. The gap is large throughout Eastern Europe, but is widest in Hungary — evidence that Hungarians, who once pioneered the transition away from communism, are not turning their backs on democracy. Instead, they are frustrated by the fact that democracy has yet to fully flourish in their country. So they absolutely aren't saying they want to return to communism. Like, at all. They're just frustrated that joining the EU isn't the democratic form of governance they were hopping for, and are dissatisfied with that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm) Completely goes against the point being made by this meme. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...did you read this whole thing? Or just take the numbers and run with it? Overall, residents who are more educated are less likely to say the collapse harmed their country and more likely to say it benefited them. Kyrgyzstan is the exception. Residents who say that "most people" in their country are afraid to openly express their political views are more likely to say that the collapse harmed their country than those who say that "no one" is afraid. This suggests the freedom they thought they might have after the fall of the Soviet Union has not materialized -- and in some cases, the situation may be even worse. Under the strict regime in Tajikistan, for example, 61% of those who say most people are afraid also say the breakup hurt their country, compared with 35% of those who say no one is afraid. Also: Overall, residents who see opportunities for their children and themselves to succeed are more likely to say the breakup benefited their country than those who do not. Thirty percent of residents of these former republics who say children in their country have the opportunity to learn and grow say their country benefited, compared with 18% who do not think children have this opportunity. And in all countries, residents who say people in their countries can get ahead through hard work are twice as likely to say their country benefited (29%) than those who do not think they can get ahead (17%) How is any of this proof that these countries should return to communism? It sounds like education, freedom of political expression and those who see opportunity in themselves and their children are all factors in people turning their backs to communism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world -2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them I just quoted literally verbatim what the pollers said. You can deep dive looking for cope all you want but the fact remains that people see the change to capitalism as making their countries worse. If you want to get more upset you can read my other longer comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 years ago (1 child) I'm not upset. :) I did go back and go through what you posted. At the end of the article about Hungary. There's a "read more" link, which expands the article to include this: However, these findings do not mean Hungarians are rejecting democratic values. In fact, as the survey illustrates, they are more likely than other former Eastern bloc publics to say it is very important to live in a country with democratic rights and institutions. But few believe Hungary currently has these democratic freedoms. However, when reviewing these gloomy findings about the state of democracy in Hungary, it is worth remembering that they do not mean Hungarians are abandoning democratic values. To the contrary, Hungarians continue to want democratic rights and institutions — in fact, they place a higher premium on these things than their post-communist neighbors. When asked to rate the importance of six key features of democracy, Hungarians stand out for their strong embrace of democratic values. The challenge for Hungary is that, while most Hungarians want democratic values and institutions, few think they have them. For instance, 70% think it is very important to live in a country with honest multiparty elections, but only 17% believe this describes Hungary very well. Taking the median percentage saying these values are very important in each country and comparing it with the median percentage saying these values describe their country very well gives us an overall “democracy gap” for each country. The gap is large throughout Eastern Europe, but is widest in Hungary — evidence that Hungarians, who once pioneered the transition away from communism, are not turning their backs on democracy. Instead, they are frustrated by the fact that democracy has yet to fully flourish in their country. So they absolutely aren't saying they want to return to communism. Like, at all. They're just frustrated that joining the EU isn't the democratic form of governance they were hopping for, and are dissatisfied with that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm) Completely goes against the point being made by this meme. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world -2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them I just quoted literally verbatim what the pollers said. You can deep dive looking for cope all you want but the fact remains that people see the change to capitalism as making their countries worse. If you want to get more upset you can read my other longer comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 years ago (1 child) I'm not upset. :) I did go back and go through what you posted. At the end of the article about Hungary. There's a "read more" link, which expands the article to include this: However, these findings do not mean Hungarians are rejecting democratic values. In fact, as the survey illustrates, they are more likely than other former Eastern bloc publics to say it is very important to live in a country with democratic rights and institutions. But few believe Hungary currently has these democratic freedoms. However, when reviewing these gloomy findings about the state of democracy in Hungary, it is worth remembering that they do not mean Hungarians are abandoning democratic values. To the contrary, Hungarians continue to want democratic rights and institutions — in fact, they place a higher premium on these things than their post-communist neighbors. When asked to rate the importance of six key features of democracy, Hungarians stand out for their strong embrace of democratic values. The challenge for Hungary is that, while most Hungarians want democratic values and institutions, few think they have them. For instance, 70% think it is very important to live in a country with honest multiparty elections, but only 17% believe this describes Hungary very well. Taking the median percentage saying these values are very important in each country and comparing it with the median percentage saying these values describe their country very well gives us an overall “democracy gap” for each country. The gap is large throughout Eastern Europe, but is widest in Hungary — evidence that Hungarians, who once pioneered the transition away from communism, are not turning their backs on democracy. Instead, they are frustrated by the fact that democracy has yet to fully flourish in their country. So they absolutely aren't saying they want to return to communism. Like, at all. They're just frustrated that joining the EU isn't the democratic form of governance they were hopping for, and are dissatisfied with that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm) Completely goes against the point being made by this meme. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 years ago (1 child) I'm not upset. :) I did go back and go through what you posted. At the end of the article about Hungary. There's a "read more" link, which expands the article to include this: However, these findings do not mean Hungarians are rejecting democratic values. In fact, as the survey illustrates, they are more likely than other former Eastern bloc publics to say it is very important to live in a country with democratic rights and institutions. But few believe Hungary currently has these democratic freedoms. However, when reviewing these gloomy findings about the state of democracy in Hungary, it is worth remembering that they do not mean Hungarians are abandoning democratic values. To the contrary, Hungarians continue to want democratic rights and institutions — in fact, they place a higher premium on these things than their post-communist neighbors. When asked to rate the importance of six key features of democracy, Hungarians stand out for their strong embrace of democratic values. The challenge for Hungary is that, while most Hungarians want democratic values and institutions, few think they have them. For instance, 70% think it is very important to live in a country with honest multiparty elections, but only 17% believe this describes Hungary very well. Taking the median percentage saying these values are very important in each country and comparing it with the median percentage saying these values describe their country very well gives us an overall “democracy gap” for each country. The gap is large throughout Eastern Europe, but is widest in Hungary — evidence that Hungarians, who once pioneered the transition away from communism, are not turning their backs on democracy. Instead, they are frustrated by the fact that democracy has yet to fully flourish in their country. So they absolutely aren't saying they want to return to communism. Like, at all. They're just frustrated that joining the EU isn't the democratic form of governance they were hopping for, and are dissatisfied with that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm) Completely goes against the point being made by this meme. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm) Completely goes against the point being made by this meme. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) ...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago* (2 children) They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (2 children) Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) lol no they're not permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt) The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way. Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists. Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike. So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 4 points 3 years ago (1 child) Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money. You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (2 children) You’re applying US patterns to places you don’t understand. I'm not american. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 1 point 3 years ago I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago (1 child) Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction! permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 3 years ago There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts. The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count. Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml -2 points 3 years ago (1 child) You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied. Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 years ago You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you. Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general. I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FluffyPotato@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) I also like how there's no data for like the most anti soviet regions. Searching for the source at the bottom only gave me the same picture in a ifunny post so I'm assuming this is bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago* I literally showed you several of the sources for this FIVE HOURS before you made this comment claiming they don't exist and it's bullshit. This is what I mean with you people. You just LIE. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 3 years ago The famously anti-soviet country of Belarus, unlike the extremely pro-soviet regimes of Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago* I literally showed you several of the sources for this FIVE HOURS before you made this comment claiming they don't exist and it's bullshit. This is what I mean with you people. You just LIE. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Valbrandur@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 3 years ago The famously anti-soviet country of Belarus, unlike the extremely pro-soviet regimes of Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] trimmerfrost@lemm.ee 1 point 3 years ago The people who denied are dead /s permalink fedilink source parent