this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2023
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Image text: @agnieszkasshoes: "Part of what makes small talk so utterly debilitating for many of us who are neurodivergent is that having to smile and lie in answer to questions like, "how are you?" is exhausting to do even once, and society makes us do it countless times a day."

@LuckyHarmsGG: "It's not just the lie, it's the energy it takes to suppress the impulse to answer honestly, analyze whether the other person wants the truth, realize they almost certainly don't, and then have to make the DECISION to lie, every single time. Over and over. Decision fatigue is real"

@agnieszkasshoes: "Yes! The constant calculations are utterly exhausting - and all under the pressure of knowing that if you get it "wrong" you will be judged for it!"

My addition: For me, in addition to this, more specifically it's the energy to pull up that info and analyze how I am. Like I don't know the answer to that question and that's why it's so annoying. Now I need to analyze my day, decide what parts mean what to me and weigh the average basically, and then decide if that's appropriate to share/if the person really wants to hear the truth of that, then pull up my files of pre-prepared phrases for the question that fits most closely with the truth since not answering truthfully is close to impossible for me.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CvPSP-2xU4h/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm old, but it took a lot of time to network/socialize. I know there's books/material to socialize now. I have learned to grey rock, and just go neutral with giving a response to most situations.

This is a learned thing. No one teached us this back in the 80s or earlier. Life isn't easy, we learn as we get older. Yes, it's hard, but if some random person asks about your day, just say "great, how about you?". Put the focus back on them. Let them talk. Just listen. Oh, their grandma passed away last week? "Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. Let's remember her legacy, and know that she lived to her fullest."

We are all still animals at the end of the day. You can make mistakes! Learn from them, and move on. Learn as you go.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I believe that part of the problem - at least in my case - is that typical person immediately sees 3-4 possible generic answers to such questions.

For me... It's like opening Pandora Box and have the brain flooded with not just answers but long chains of interactions, where none leads to anything positive. A "simple" question is like like an abyss that's gonna suck you down and exhaust you while you're trying to escape it so much, that you feel like lying down and trying to remember that air is meant to be inhaled again after it's exhaled...

There was this scene in the original Terminator movie, where the robot sees the spinning list of possible answers to "cat question". For me, this list doesn't stop. Even when the conversation is already finished, the list continues to spin.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (29 children)

The "typical" person doesn't see 3 or 4 answers, they have prepared a few generic answers to those small questions, and anyone can do that. Unless you're really feeling different, and have enough intimacy with the asker to be honest, it's just a game of tic-tac-toe that anyone can learn.

How are you doing? Fine, how's life treating you?

Nice weather, eh? I've had better.

Etc.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (13 children)

Nobody is saying that neurodivergent people can't do small talk, it's that it is oftentimes a dreadful experience for them. You do understand the difference, yes?

It's a bit like telling someone genetically predisposed to disliking cilantro because it tastes like soap to "just eat cliantro... everyone can do it!"

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I'm not autistic, but I got sick of this stupid expected "how are you?", "fine" nonsense. It's meaningless. Now I just give a quick honest answer. Nobody really finds it weird and it makes for much more engaging non-monotonous interactions.

You can even answer negatively if you manage to tone it right. "Eh, bit stressed", but then in a positive, non-confrontational, tone just add "but how are you?".

As long as you keep it brief, the other person can question it if they are genuinely interested, and then you can have actual conversation, or they won't if they're not really interested, it works fine either way.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I’m not neurodivergent, but small talk is fundamentally a conversation with no other purpose than to maintain, build and express social relationships. There’s no substantive information being passed. So I guess it is a concentrated dose of some people’s worst nightmare.

By the way - there’s nothing wrong in a brief truthful answer if you a feeling a bit down, or you pulled a muscle in your neck or whatever

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (5 children)

By the way - there’s nothing wrong in a brief truthful answer if you a feeling a bit down, or you pulled a muscle in your neck or whatever

That’s how it should be. Unfortunately, there’s a fair amount of people who take your honesty as a direct affront to them. After all, how do I dare to say I’m not doing so well? At that point, the socially acceptable thing to do is to display some empathy for me, and they don’t like me enough to put that effort! I shouldn’t have strayed away from the script!

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The question is if it's important to be socially acceptable. I personally don't think it is. I've stopped holding back anything or "lying" like mentioned in this post, and sure I rub some people the wrong way, but why would I care? I just don't associate with them in that case.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

I have the tendency to do the same, but that's because my circumstances allow me to. Your capacity to choose whether or not you're going to interact with someone in the workplace or at school is pretty constrained in a lot of places.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I just answer honestly. I don't have time to be a fake person.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Yeah you can answer however you want just keep it short.

"I'm having a tough week, but I'm working through it. How are you?"

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

"I am functioning within established parameters."

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

LOW ON CYAN

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Here's my attempt at a hopefully helpful explanation:

Almost always the small talk itself isn't meant to be a "real" conversation. It's deliberately surface level and repetitive because of this. Think of it like a verbal handshake. A standard greeting that is essentially "I am initiating a conversation" but with an extra layer obscuring that because communication is complicated and there's a ton happening under the surface.

There's a little judgment step prior to engaging in actual conversation to establish that a conversation is or isn't about to happen, if this person is friendly, are they communicating on the same level, etc. The small talk has essentially lost its literal meaning entirely and is all subtext to establish these things. "How's it going?" is just them initiating the conversion protocol, and so taking it literally is like sending back an error message.

If you feel saying "good" to a question like "how's it going" is lying, it might be helpful to think of the question as not actually a question but just a collection of random sounds we've assigned to starting up a conversation and the replies are no different. They aren't actually asking, the words don't even mean that in their head, and your answer just needs to fall into the right parameters that show you're doing the same. Or just have a few "canned" responses that are ready to go so they don't need much thought or sarcastic so you don't feel like it's lying. I'm a fan of "oh you know, livin' the dream" or "I'm surviving" for these sorts of things.

If they actually want real conversation, it'll come after the small talk has established the connection.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

My favorite example of how correct this is is how conversations often go with my friends I haven't spoken to in awhile. We will perform the cursory social protocol "hey how are you" "good how are you?" "Good thanks, what's new with you?" "Not much, you?" "Not much" ... And then we often go back to, how have you been? Which is the signal that we've transitioned into the real question seeking the real conversation. Even though it's kind of all the same question in different forms.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I worked customer service for some jobs and have a system. If people ask how you’re doing, they don’t want an answer. They want you to say something corny and friendly, use the same tone and accent they do.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (29 children)

Serious question from a non neurodivergent. Why don't you tell the truth? What's wrong with that?

Sorry, just for me to understand because I have no experience

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

Imagine if you're working as a cashier and you say to your customer, "hey, what's up?" and then they start a ten minutes monologue about everything that's happened to them today and how that's made them feel. You're just sitting there like "I'm at work, I'm just being polite, you're holding up a line of customers, I'll get in trouble with my boss for being so slow, etc.". All you wanted was for the customer to say "Yeah, you?" and move on.

In the UK and America, and probably most places, saying "how are you?" or "what's up?" is the equivalent of saying "hello" or "I would like to start a conversation with you" -- it's very rare that you actually want to know about the other person's day. For a lot of autistic people though, we take those questions literally.

Edit to add: you can't always assume that people don't care about how you are. Got in trouble with my doctor for just saying "fine" when he was actually asking what is wrong with me. So it always feels like you have to make this calculation of what does the person really mean? I understand that neuro-typical people just sort of magically know the context in a way that autistic people don't - I think it's just a lived experience where we both have to say "I don't understand how that is, but I trust that it's the way you experience things" and move on.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The truth about how I am? Because they don't care. They don't actually want a long infodump about personal details of my life.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I just give short honest answer. If they are interested - might turn into a good conversation if not, I don't care. But I'm also not neurodivergent - just not too much into small talk.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Because people get weirded out and start to exclude me when I start a 10min monologue on my emotional state and life situation instead of "I'm fine, thanks"

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I have a solution for you. Move to a small city/town of south of Europe. You'll get 15 minutes monologue as a reply to your 10 minutes monologue. If you are talking with some older lady, 20 minutes of detailed description of age-related physical struggles.

That's how old style social networks are built there. That's actually pretty nice, once one get used to it.

Drawback, no jobs there and you need to learn a romance language

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's just a greeting. The proper response is "fine, and you?" The person will dig deeper if they wanted a bigger answer.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

I live in Sweden. If you ask anyone here how they're doing they will give you a detailed account of how they're doing.

It was really confusing for me when I went to the US and I had to tell every store employee about my aching back due to the hotel having a soft bed and the cold I got from the airplane AC.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (6 children)

The Truth? About how I am? How the heck am I supposed to do that? I suppose I could tell you my general level of energy. I could tell you the character of my thoughts and what sort of things caught my attention recently. I could think back to when I last had a clearly identifiable emotion, what I was thinking at the time, and if it's still relevant. I could tell you about physical sensations in my body - do I feel tense, is my head clear, is my pulse elevated, are my ears ringing, how grounded do I feel? Or how I'm experiencing the outside world - how is the temperature, the humidity, the light, the noise? I could think about things that happened recently, or where I am now generally in life, or my worries or ideas for the future, and does any of that relate to how I am in the here and now. And eventually, maybe, after far more intimacy and far more uncertainty than you'd likely be comfortable with, I might tentatively offer some emotional label as to how I am.

Can't vouch for its accuracy tho. I just inhabit this brain, I don't know everything that goes on here.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Because no one wants to be trauma dumped on, especially when they don't have a way to escape (working).

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (6 children)

In Finland nobody asks you that and if somebody does, everybody gives a direct and correct answer. It is one of the perks in any Finn that makes it hard for us to discuss with Americans if we're not used to them.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Now I understand why I don't have a problem with small talk. The people I make small talk with aren't assholes!

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Don't lie then, just go "Eh." and shrug.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I'm not neurodivergent, but I loathe small talk just the same. Giving an "eh" type answer is indeed best as it tends to end the conversation. Concocting a lie or even giving a more involved honest answer only encourages the conversation to continue. For me the goal is to make it stop.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It gets better over time. I think working on self awareness helps. If we have a better idea of how we actually feel we can at least answer honestly. It's a little trickier when concealing the truth is required. I had a boss who often paused for a moment and said 'I don't know' when people asked 'how are you?' It disarmed people and they tended not to ask. He made no effort to engage in small talk and that suited me. Looking back he must have been on the spectrum.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Many people like Americans say as a trained friendly greeting "hi, how are you". Other people like Chinese say "hi, have you eaten (had rice) yet". They both simply need to be viewed as greetings. Neither actually want to know your full life story of your eating habits or the many bad things that may have happened to you in your day week or life.

Don't try it here in Germany. Often people will try and test you and tell you a long story of many bad things to see if you "care". But it is in fact missing an important cultural contex. It is not that they don't care if you have eaten or that your wife is dieing of cancer... It is that is not what they were truly asking. It should be interpreted simply as a friendly greeting such as good morning. It is as inappropriate to responding to good morning with, "no it isn't. It's a terrible morning. I had diarrhea this morning and my cat died". The lady at the grocery store doesn't need these details and was simply being nice.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

that's the point of the post. ND folks tend to be bothered by this phenomenon. It's not that we don't already understand what you're saying. Many have commented here saying what you've just said, and like, yeah 100% and that's the issue. We get that it's a cultural norm that no one actually wants a real answer to.

But autistic folks have a brain that is wired to take things at face value. We take things literally. We struggle to ignore the literal meanings of words and feel compelled to respond with our true response to that literal interpretation. We don't want to live constantly replacing the literal meaning of words with the NT meaning. This post is one example of the seemingly constant game of NT society that does not mean the words that they say. We are tired! Say what you mean! And stop treating us like we don't get it. We fucking get it. And we think it's fucking stupid and don't want to play.

Sorry. This post keeps getting me in trouble bc I get riled up. I'm not yelling at * you * I'm just yelling to the sky with my fist shaking in the air.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

For me, life isn't that difficult. I work construction, and apparently that is the world where it's ok to be weird. I answer honestly to every question I'm asked, and people either think you're joking or just appreciate the honesty. When I get the "how are you today", I normally respond "well I'm here, so not great", and that's totally fine

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

For me, I realize that I need to just say a couple of words to make it a pleasant exchange, but not being able to really share my feelings feels frustrating, kinda like how a kid feels frustrated when they need to moderate their feelings. A lot of the time I'm really exhausted and unhappy too so that makes it worse that I can't vent and have to moderate myself cuz I'm in a perpetual state of trying to keep my mask from slipping from burnout

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

ugh working retail this is the 'question' that bugs me the most. No, this customer does not actually care about how I'm feeling, they're just continuing a shitty tradition that I want no part in. By now I just straight faced, monotone 'I'm doing good how about you' in hopes that they understand that I don't care, finish the exchange and move on. On my worst days I just don't answer.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hey there, how's it going?

"Good!" - feeling alright

"Hanging in there" - feeling a little rough but pulling through

"It's going" - bad/tired (existential)

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

This is one of the main reasons I switched to saying Happy Saturday. No one really want to answer the "How are you" question and I probably don't really care unless you are family. Saying Happy Day is also passing on joy.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Honestly, I have had thoughts of just unloading any baggage on my mind onto the person initiating small talk, with the goal of making them uncomfortable.

Stranger: Hello sir, how are y-
Me: My day was fucking horrible. First, my car caught a flat tire, then my cat vomited all over my carpet, and then this random person on the internet who I don't know called me a jollock and blah blah blah...

It'd make them feel how I feel when strangers come up and talk to me.

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