I'd link to some blog posts about this an example, but the site they're from went down a while ago.

At risk of giving anyone ideas, why do LLM training scrapers request pages from sites millions of times per day instead of just doing the equivalent of wget -r https://example.com/ ? If the point is just stealing things people have written, what do they accomplish by wasting a web host's resources beyond being an ⊛ to webmasters?

all 20 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 1 point 21 minutes ago*

Everybody in this thread is talking about what they're doing, but not a single reply has been able to explain why the bad behavior somehow benefits the companies doing it.

I don't believe the only reason is incompetence; there's got to be somehing else to it.

  • source
  • [–] 27 points 3 hours ago*

    You are sitting behind a receptionist’s desk with three coworkers. You need to check people into your office for visits.

    Because there are four of you, and people are generally good about queuing, your normal operations run smoothly.

    Now fifty people walk into the building at once. They don’t really care about checking in, or even visiting the office. They want to know if you have free coffee, a public bathroom, your elevator inspection on file, the date of your last fire inspection, and dozens more inane questions that aren’t what you’re used to handling. They refuse to wait in a line, they’re talking over one another, and if you take more than ten seconds to answer, they walk out of the building but come back to bother you a few minutes later.

    Does your office run well, and can you check in a legitimate visitor in a timely manner still?

  • source
  • [–] 5 points 2 hours ago*

    The latest scrape I saw that took down one of my sites just threw shit at the wall until something stuck. It took one second and did 50+ requests mostly for pages that didn’t exist.

  • source
  • [–] 11 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 child)

    Non-expert here, so conjecture warning.

    Loading the info from the page once is fine for training one LLM at one point in time. But there are a bunch of different companies and people doing that, and they probably keep doing it again because they want newer information.

    And training is only one aspect of AI scrapers. You also have agents constantly doing websearches and summarizing, synthesizing the info at user request, all day every day.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 6 points 3 hours ago (3 children)

    The main issue with AI scrapers is that there isn’t just one, there are dozens or hundreds of them, all doing the same thing. Most websites would handle being hammered by one or two bots just fine, but crash under the load of dozens of bots constantly sending requests.

    On top of that, many of them are very badly (vibe)coded and get stuck in endless loops, requesting the same pages over and over again. At my job we IP-blocked an aggressive data-harvesting bot from our service, and the thing got stuck requesting the same page over and over again every 8 seconds, despite receiving the same error code every time. This continued for weeks.

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (2 children)

    A whole eight seconds? Talk about lucky. We have misbehaving bots that attempt to hit the same page or small handful of pages on our site 50-100 times simultaneously, repeating this every couple of seconds. And they have tons of IP addresses they do it from so you don't see the same IP in your logs more than a couple of times a day. They seem to be doing it specifically to attempt to evade simple IP detection in order to make it harder to block them. And there aren't that many IPv4 addresses in the world anymore, so the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the AI chucklefucks are using some manner of malware to route their traffic through botnets these days. Stealing people's bandwidth and not just their copyrighted content. It'd certainly be on brand.

    For my block lists I have to look at patterns of behavior now instead, and even that's not a sure fire thing. It'd be easy to block a legitimate user who just so happens to be trying to load the same page/product at the same time the clankers are fixated on it.

    Putting the entire thing behind Cloudflare helped a lot. Unfortunately, I just got an email from them which seems to imply that by default they're going to start letting more bots through, which seems like a counterproductive move...

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

    the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the AI chucklefucks are using some manner of malware to route their traffic through botnets these days

    Not a conspiracy at all: it’s a whole industry called “resnet proxies” that considerably predates LLMs.

    There’s a whole good, bad, and ugly to it; they’re invaluable as a privacy and public-access tool, but also great for blackhats and ticket scalpers. Similarly, the proxy nodes come from a full spectrum of sources ranging from normies getting paid kickbacks to plug a box into their router, to pseudo-ISPs serving ghost clients, to malware farms, and everything in between.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 5 points 3 hours ago

    Short answer: they aren't just grabbing one page. They are hitting every page and link that is available in rapid succession.

  • source
  • [–] 4 points 4 hours ago (5 children)

    As soon as a page loads, the AI goes to a new page. Not just one new page, every link on the page.

    It's functionally a ddos attack. Because it quickly spirals exponentially. The limit isn't how fast the AI can scrape, it's how much bandwidth the website server has.

  • source
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (4 children)

    But isn't this how ordinary search crawlers and tools like wget also work? I've never heard of them causing these same problems.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 3 hours ago* (1 child)

    Ordinary search crawlers are throttled and they do stuff like respect your robots.txt and sitemap.xml (directives that tell the crawler what links to scan or not and how frequently). These naive crawlers hit everything at max speed, and on a content-heavy site like lemmy that can easily take out a server.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 3 hours ago (1 child)

    Same difference as being hit by a golf cart rolling down a sleight slope and 100 Semi's going 100mph

    The problem isn't what they're doing, it's the speed and depth. There's no concern for efficiency because they're not paying for hardware and utilities.

    Everything AI is focused on doing asuch as possible as fast as possible, with the hope optimization will happen organically to the point it becomes profitable.

    But it won't.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 3 hours ago

    Correct. Google indexing your web page is rate limited for this reason, and you can even include a directive in your robots.txt to specify your own rate limit if you'd like the intervals to be longer (or shorter). The AI scrapers completely ignore your robots.txt. Except, I am certain, for abusing it as if it were a site map. Anything you list there is simply a target you've revealed to them. ("Hey, robots.txt says we shouldn't crawl /foo/bar.html. That means there's a page there! Let's hammer it with 900 page load requests per second!")

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 3 hours ago (3 children)

    Because a -r is likely what they are doing. Recursively checking everything every 3 microseconds

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] [S] 3 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

    So they're just checking as fast as possible to get every update as fast as possible?

    This still sounds like idiot design, scraping hard enough to take down sites. It's like cutting open the goose that lays lead eggs in the hope that you can get more lead and convince people that lead is better than gold.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 3 hours ago

    While this is idiotic and counter productive long term, the thing to remember, it's not just one scraper, it's hundreds of them, simultaneously trying to outscrape the other, each trying to hoover up as much as possible as fast as possible.

    If that's not enough, the Facebook scrapers hit the same URL over and over again, even when that URL returns an error. Their approach to web scraping is essentially: "Fuck you, deal with it", even if the website is run by a small business that cannot financially justify more bandwidth or server capacity.

    I've seen this process bring sites down, to the point of actively having to block all non-human requests, just to be able to serve customers. This of course doesn't work long term because the bots continue to probe and morph.

  • source
  • parent