top 50 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 66 points 1 month ago* (39 children)

I actually disagree with a lot of people here.

If you allow llm to infect code, you will have no programmers that can code once your pre-ai ones (like linus) phase out.

It's not really ai that is the problem but the skills it eliminates. You can't properly fix bad ai code if you don't do code without ai, you will not gain the experience of decades of manually coding properly.

The most experienced coders that exist today are the equivalent of artisanal stone carvers and wood workers who built some of the most beautiful buildings that exist of older times. Modern construction methods phased them out and now the number of people with their skill is tiny worldwide compared to thousands of them in every country in the past.

The tech industry is going to eat itself and won't realise until it's too late.

  • source
  • hideshow 39 child comments
  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    Okay but 99% of corporate codebases are already insane crap. The LLMs write boring, overly safe code, but at least they don't make obvious IDOR bugs like my human coworkers.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 15 child comments
  • [–] 29 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I've seen LLMs put sensitive secrets in git just like any incompetent junior dev

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 25 points 1 month ago* (9 children)

    Yeah but when you're gone nobody is going to even be able to tell the difference between one set of code or the other. Instead the competent programmers will be replaced with tech priests preaching to the machine.

    Embracing this technology eliminates competency. Consider how the art industry is currently refusing to embrace it and instead fighting it, what does this do? It ensures that the future has artists who remain competent and does not turn the field of art into a bunch of people who give prompts to an AI.

    To really understand this you need to imagine a future where the art field embraced AI and all manual art stops, instead being replaced by people that give prompts to AI to make art. This is the future of the programming field by embracing AI. All future programmers when the manual programmers phase out will just be people that only know how to prompt.

    It is incredibly shortsighted and only the realisation that everyone in the field will become like ai "artists" once the current experience phases out really makes this clear. It will suffer a total skill collapse.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • load more comments (9 replies)
  • [–] [S] 11 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    This is why anyone who uses llms should know how to code and they should review the code.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    Yeah but if they don't write code they won't learn. A lot of coding isn't really like learning to drive a car and once you know how you're done, it's a persistent lifelong accumulation of experience in architecture.

    The field absolutely will suffer a skill collapse when the existing generations of experienced pre-ai programmers phase out. There is no replacement mechanism in the system and the industry is young enough to have never even had to think about this problem ever occurring.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I'm not pro-LLM but this already happens all the time at corporate levels when the bean counters decide to fire (usually constructively dismiss) their senior talent. They have a complex codebase that captures domain specific logic well and uses good practices but then they try to have a dev team that's half the size and 1/10th as experienced try and fail to maintain it. Then customers complain and it gets poorly patched over and over again until something important breaks and they have to stop touching entire parts of the stack or they leak a db dump or get ransomed or the site goes from 99.9999% uptime to 90%.

    I do understand that at an industry level you're describing something like the memes where only millennials can edit a pdf because the boomers/gen x never tried to learn tech and the zoomers were never exposed to non-mobile-app workflows as kids. Where the skill itself is mostly generationally bound. But I do think the skillet will remain, just not at the corporate shovelware factories where it was already actively despised as a cost center to be done away with at the earliest opportunity. Because they already deskill there! And outsource with zero investigation of competency (not a dig at workers getting the outsourced jobs, even the ones that don't know their stuff, because hell yeah I salute that).

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (14 replies)
    [–] 55 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    I've been in software for nearly two decades. The industry has fundamentally changed with the advent of language model tools. I don't like it, but Pandora's box is wide open and I want to understand what the path forward is.

    I don't write code for work anymore, I babysit a language model. Maintaining a sense of code ownership and comprehension is a real risk, and we are pushed to use tools that turn our brains into pudding.

    Is this what the old timers thought when fancy pants compilers showed up? The reason I disagree with this analogy is that the new tooling is fundamentally incompatible with software freedom that cannot be solved with gcc et al. I can't afford a $10k computer to run local models.

  • source
  • hideshow 15 child comments
  • [–] 50 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    The idea is you're basically expected to be a manager so the LLM is now your junior engineer except you don't get the joy of building someone up and watching them grow you get an expensive robot that never learns and can't remember what you said yesterday.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 46 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    It's pretty funny watching software go from arguing about functional programming, total test coverage, side effect free code, and mathematical proofs of correctness to "eh just sorta run your eyes over code you didn't write and hope that 6 hours into your shift you're not letting anything critical by"

    Erlang, Haskell, my beloved. I will still love you while the others are lost to a storm of madness.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 32 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    It's not funny at all. I'm gonna develop male pattern baldness from pulling my hair out every time I have to interact with LLM-using 'programmers'.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 24 points 1 month ago

    The reason I disagree with this analogy is that the new tooling is fundamentally incompatible with software freedom that cannot be solved with gcc et al. I can't afford a $10k computer to run local models.

    That's actually a good point but if we consider history the barrier to entry to software engineering was huge 40-50 years ago, not many people could afford to do it locally. Then again it's different because software as a whole wasn't really that important 50 years ago.

    Then again "software freedom" as we know it may just as well be a coincidental transient phenomenon because capitalist markets arranged themselves in such a way to make the hardware and software required to build and maintain software accessible enough to the general public, that "right" can conceivably be taken away by the same system again, there is no reason to assume it's here to stay.

    Honestly I'm just rambling at this point I have no idea where any of this leads I'm pretty much hoping the whole thing is gonna be a dud and we'll return to the same old way of doing things, capitalism is a fuck, death to america.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    I can't afford a $10k computer to run local models.

    Hopefully that is only temporary.

    I imagine few people could afford a Unix system in 1987 when Stallman first wrote GCC.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago

    We're at a really different point technologically and given the whole thing of Google's paper and the architecture is more data more layers more good there is a huge incentive to run on as much ram as possible which is expensive.

    We're not going from hand soldered resistors to nanoscale transistors again. We're looking at some serious physics walls. Even if photonic chips leave the lab.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    It's not magic these models are big and you can't just squeeze them onto smaller devices. Quantisation isn't magic either it's literally reducing the accuracy of a larger model to fit on a smaller device reducing its performance. If the data doesn't exist in the model weights then the model will perform worse and you can only compress data so much. The only meaningful tech shift in the space is unified memory but it's not going to be enough for anything this is fundamentally going to need silly quantities of ram for any effective model to run.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
    [–] 49 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    I can't wait for no one to know how any of our software works in ten years, why it's so bloated, or why it breaks all the time.

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 38 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    That's pretty much how a large part of our software is today. It's only going to get so much worse....

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 30 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I really dislike how everything this man says or does is interpreted like it is instruction from god.

    If Linus torvalds jumped off a bridge, half the Linux nerds would line up to do the same.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
    [–] 29 points 1 month ago

    this year 1 CS student used her brain to fix a Linux bug, and now thinking critics on Linux face an uncomfortable choice

  • source
  • [–] 27 points 1 month ago

    I don't really care that much about whether the code I use has been made with LLMs. I don't like working with LLMs and I don't like working with people who heavily rely on LLMs. And since this is a matter of me volunteering my time it's an easy decision to distance myself from projects with an everything goes LLM policy.

  • source
  • [–] 25 points 1 month ago

    I don't think it changes much of anything if linux doesn't crash, Linus already said he will allow llm based code if it has been fully reviewed and he already said he considers it a neutral tool which is good in some instances, the fact he used it for troubleshooting isn't that surprising or groundbreaking tbh from what was already public knowledge.

  • source
  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    flop-pog the linux kernel is compromised? flop-pog install openbsd immediately? flop-pog


    ⓘ Remember to enable JPEG-XL support in your browser, even on your phone!

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (2 replies)
    load more comments
    view more: next ›