In Quebec they use sand, I don't see why that can't just be done here, it's not like it's a major change to the equipment or anything.
this post was submitted on 26 Nov 2023
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It can, they often use it
Sand doesn’t melt ice but it provides traction; too much and it’s slippery again, too little and it does nothing
If you have a busy road where it’s constantly being moved around as well as melting and freezing again then it’s not ideal
The dirt also has to be cleaned up
The dirt also has to be cleaned up
You mean the dirt CAN be cleaned up. This is a pro, not a con. The salt also needs to be cleaned up, and it's a LOT harder.
Water washes salt away better (and into our streams), it’s easier on our pipes
Water washes salt away better (and into our streams), it’s easier on our pipes
You get that's the actual problem we're trying to solve, right? Water washing salt away is the opposite of cleaning up!! We still need to recover that salt, only now it's in our ecosystem.
I’m aware
That doesn’t change anything
Fair.
Doesn't sound like there's a great solution overall.
Imagine if we were crazy enough to heat the streets from underground.
Shifting away from car dependancy would reduce overall traffic and make sand more useable and reduce total salt used when salt is still needed.
The problem with that is you're not going to reduce traffic and shift away from car dependency because the entire GTA is designed exclusively for cars. If I want to go to Costco I have to take the highway. If I want to walk to the local McDonalds it would take me at least a half an hour to get there from my house. If I want to take a bus, it takes 30-45 minutes before one passes, and the routes are inconvenient, almost always requiring a bunch of transfers. You easily triple or quadruple your journey time by trying to take public transit.
The GTA is too far gone in suburban sprawl to really reduce car dependency unless we tear down all the low density single family detached homes and replace everything with 15-minute-cities-style mixed residential, we're never going to actually reduce the number of cars on the road, and with more suburban projects still sprawling further, the issue is continuing to compound.
They wanted to use the Glen Abbey golf course for residential real estate and they estimated another few thousand homes, which in a best-case scenario include higher density duplexes and such, but would more than likely be generally full of single family detached, contributing probably about on average a car and a half. I can tell you already Oakville does not have the road infrastructure to handle even more cars, and zoning approval for denser real estate is fucked because everybody on the council is NIMBY as all get out.
"We cant not design for cars because we already designed for cars"
Toronto existed before cars. People walked or took the tram. It can't be fixed over night but it can be rebuilt to be less car centric.
We can design for pedestrians, my point is just that the majority of the GTA needs massive massive reworks to be pedestrian friendly.
I'm not saying we can't, it's just that we haven't for the last two generations, and now it's even harder to break the habit.
The best time to start was two generations ago. The second best time is now.
Allow mixed-use 3-5 story buildings everywhere, remove parking minimums, and watch how transit corridors fill with liveable neighborhoods.
It wouldn’t even be that hard really, but it isn’t something you could easily retrofit into place
I've seen gravel used more than sand in Quebec. Same problems though. Bonus points is you get to eat shit in spring while skateboarding.
Be a heathen like me and push mongo and you'll never eat shit from stones ever again. LOL
Lmfao real pro tip right there, can't eat shit if your weight isn't on the shit eating end!
Blame corporations for applying obscene amounts of salts to prevent liability issues. The place I used to work at would put down so much everyday it was like walking on rocks. The entire sidewalk and parking lot.
The building I work in…. It’s literally like walking on a crunchy field of crystals.
Cement is starting to erode away.
Exactly.
When I lived in Calgary they used beet juice and it worked fine.
How does that work?
The sugars lower the freezing point of the ice so the salt works better but it still needs salt.
It's also super sticky which helps
From what i found its beet juice mixed with salt brine. Not as bad as normal ice melt apparently.
https://www.backyardboss.net/beet-juice-ice-melt/
Though I'm sure this isn't great for the environment either.
Calgary is semi-arid. Beet juice would not work in a place like Ontario. Too much ice!
They already use it. It works.
Curious, do they use Sodium Chloride or Magnesium Chloride or something else?
Sodium chloride is usual, because it's the cheapest option even if it isn't the most effective.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The move to reduce the amount of road salt during the winter months can't wait because Ontario's groundwater and lakes are showing "very rapid salinization," researchers at the University of Waterloo say.
"We actually use a lot of of salt, and salt is a very effective way to keep roads, sidewalks and parking lots free of ice, and that, of course, is important in terms of ensuring the safety of road users and pedestrians," said Philippe Van Cappellen, a professor and researcher at the school, as well as the Canada Excellence Research Chair Laureate in Ecohydrology
Most recently, Van Cappellen was part of a research group that looked specifically at Lake Wilcox in Richmond Hill.
Van Cappellen said he wants local municipalities to talk about their road salt use, setting targets such as reducing its use by 25 per cent in the next five years.
David Pressey, the Region of Waterloo's manager of transportation operations, said the muniipality has been aware of concerns about the use of road salt and has actively worked to decrease its use.
The region will lay down a brine solution when it learns a storm is coming, helping reduce the amount of rock salt spread during plowing.
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