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[–] 22 points 1 month ago (6 children)

Actual question, what caused the collapse of the soviet Union? I'm sure answers will be simplifications but I wish I knew more about the history

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    This article makes a succinct argument, but essentially the reasons for its fall:

    • The cold war arms race upped by Reagan - a huge drain on both material and mental resources that would've been better allocated to other industries. The US's constant military pressure and brinksmanship forced the USSR to play catchup against an opponent with a larger chip stack.
    • The USSR acted as anchor and banker to many third world revolutionary projects, which proved an additional drain on its economy. PRC avoided this mistake by being strictly non-interventionist, and avoiding these dangerous foreign policy traps.
    • De-linking from the world economy and not being able to take advantage of the newest technology and consumer products from the west. The PRC corrected this mistake by the 1980s.
    • Capitulations by Gorbachev to begin the process of privatization and dismantle the planned economy. PRC also avoided this by strengthening its publicly owned portion of the economy, refusing to privatize them, and making sure they commanded the top position.
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  • [–] [S] 15 points 1 month ago

    It's also important to add the overarching context here which is that the US got to sit WW2 out and develop its industries while the rest of the world burned. So, when it started the Cold War, the US was far ahead economically and used its advantage to drag USSR into the arms race. And the western world has been riding that advantage ever since.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago*

    Basically "because the most powerful countries in the world tried their absolute hardest to kill it for decades and they finally succeeded in its slow death." Pretty much everything other than de-linking from the world economy was brought on by the West.

    AKA "socialism doesn't work because it's our mandate to ensure it doesn't work"

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    De-linking from the world economy and not being able to take advantage of the newest technology and consumer products from the west. The PRC corrected this mistake by the 1980s.

    Is this not evidence that the Soviet (and Chinese) economy was less innovative than the West's.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    Read the article I linked above for the answer. Richer countries like the US and western europe industrialized at least a hundred years before. Both the USSR and PRC were largely feudal economies in the early 1900s. But the soviet union (despite starting out from about the same point as Brazil in 1920) caught up to the US within a few decades, beating it to space, and forcing it to allocate tonsof resources to state-run research and development projects.

    It wasn't even really the USSR's choice to de-link, it was heavily attacked by all the western countries during it's civil war, and they embargoed the country when they lost. The west rode their hundred-year head start on industrialization and resource advantage from hundreds of years from colonialism and slavery, and also funded the newly defeated fascist countries like germany and japan to become anti-communist bulwarks producing consumer goods.

    The PRC has now surpassed the US in most tech sectors, once again proving the superiority of socialism.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    You're comparing 300 million and 1500 million people to the entire rest of the world. And in that rest of the world is about 1000 million people with significantly better living conditions, infrastructure, institutions and education, who of course have huge advantages in being able to create advanced technologies.

    And even then you're ignoring that there are industries where the Soviet Union and China both managed to become world leaders.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Another thing I thought of randomly: read cj chivers the gun, which compares the development processes of the ak47 vs the ar15, and their histories. It's a microcosm of the superiority of socialist / collective planning vs the shitshow of capitalist profit-driven development.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Bad reforms. Deng Xiaoping did a good job reforming China without demonising its communist history. Khrushchev chose to demonize Stalin, and in doing so compromised the integrity of the communist party. Two decades of degeneration later the party's economic policy gets a lot worse and stagnation sets in. The rest is history.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Interesting, can you expand on what you mean by Khrushchev demonizing Stalin compromising the integrity of the communist party?

    I come from a liberal country so most of what I know about Stalin is just that he sucked. No idea how much of that folks on ML disagree with, whether he had many legitimate issues, or folks in your community see him as having been more demonized by western voices- I would be open to perspectives on that subject

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me :)

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Not OP, but I recall reading an essay by Carlos Martinez where he explained it as the following:

    Most people, regardless of what economic system they live in, don’t really have a real understanding of that system. Consider how many people actually understand what “capitalism” is today. While the Soviets did try what they could to educate their people in this regard, it’s kind of a human thing that most people just want to live their lives and aren’t going to bother trying to figure out how they economy around them works.

    So even if most people in the USSR didn’t really understand what “socialism” was, they did know that the improvement in their material conditions from the beginning of Stalin’s tenure to the end was truly incredible (and indeed, as impressive as China’s growth has been in recent decades by some measure the USSR under Stalin grew by even greater leaps). For good or ill, they associated the person of Stalin with “socialism” because Stalin was a socialist and Bolshevik revolutionary, and that period saw a massive improvement in their living conditions (WW2 notwithstanding of course).

    So by denouncing Stalin, many people in the Soviet Union saw that as a de facto denunciation of socialism, since the two were so closely tied together in their minds. If you equate Stalin with socialism, and the current leaders are denouncing Stalin, then at the very least that will lead to some confused feelings about socialism.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    My simplest explanation is that Russia's powerful wanted to be in charge and look out for themselves, just extracting weath from the other union members who they tried to keep in line with violence. Democracy was a farce and there were no plans to transfer power to the proletariat. This lead to separatist movements in many countries, violent and peaceful.

    The Chernobyl incident seems to be the nail in the coffin, bankrupting the state if they didn't get outside money. The Russian elite then shut the whole thing down, rigging the sell off of state assets (aka the whole economy) to create the oligarchy and an ultra capitalist Russia, and the reinvigoratation of the church and conservatism, undoing social progress too.

    I'm sure there other big factors too but they're the main ones that stuck with me, after going to dozens of museums throughout eastern Europe, the Caucasus and Russia.

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    [–] 18 points 1 month ago

    Capitalism doesn't work. The success of the USSR's planned economy are near the bottom of that page.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago

    And then China rapidly developed to be the world's leader. Meanwhile the USA continues to burn and Western-democracies crumble, espousing there's no money for any public-programs. Quality of life degrades materially and education degrades. All whilst the media's mouthpieces say socialism does not work, whilst the system of communist thought took two countries, in a hostile environment, from backwaters to parity of the world's capitalist hedgemon.

    I unfortunately think it's true that the majority of a citizenry do not understand the social order/the economy that they live in, nor do they have an interest in it.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago

    There is no Propaganda in America! There is only Public Relations!

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  • [+] 5 points 1 month ago (7 children)
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    [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Something similar happened to Japan between 1868 and 1910, minus the space age

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