...Redwood believes that by 2030, end-of-life batteries could supply more than 50 percent of the entire energy storage market. Instead of grinding up used batteries to reclaim the critical materials inside, put them to work storing electricity. There have been many experiments done that re-purpose used EV batteries which no longer can supply enough power to meet the need for rapid acceleration in an EV but still have up to 80 percent of their original energy storage capacity available...

...Traditional energy storage systems are high density and require heavy-duty cooling. To avoid this, Redwood’s team opted for an open-air, low-density system mounted on above-ground cable trays.

Spreading packs out in the open air helps avoid the need for active refrigeration, and stripping away moving parts like fans and filters minimizes potential reliability failures. Keeping the wiring above ground and limiting the size of each modular component minimizes the need for large equipment. As Sun explained, the result is a storage system that is faster to build, easier to inspect after storms, and cheaper to keep running over time...

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[–] 100 points 5 months ago (1 child)

That was a discussion point some time ago. People complained batteries from ev were not being recycled. Meanwhile the numbers showed there were not enough batteries to recycle because everybody was using them for grid storage and they last a long time. Only batteries from cars that crashed too hard are not reused.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    Yeah we studied this exact literal scenario in the "renewable energy" engineering course I took in like 2007. The future of grid scale storage will basically be utilities giving out free or heavily subsidized battery packs to individual customers to form distributed micro-grids which can balance the renewable "duck curve," and a major catalyst for this will be when EVs help establish a lithium battery recycling ecosystem.

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  • [–] 57 points 5 months ago (17 children)

    Nissan proposed to make a street lamp with a used car battery module in the base, so each lamp can hold 10 kWh distributed neatly all around the city

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (15 children)

    The idea is not bad, but also a testament to the batteries problem. The current technology in them dies too fast if this could be a viable solution.

    Nice for the current state of reality, but hopefully batteries are better in the future.

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  • [–] 34 points 5 months ago* (13 children)

    the batteries problem.

    It's different use cases - you can't handle an EV battery that only lets you accelerate 0-60 in 89 seconds, but that same EV battery can power the street lamp and similar loads for weeks between charges without trouble.

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  • [+] -21 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    No, it's also that use case.

    80% battery life is still not optimal for any EV with current range.

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  • [–] 17 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    "Optimal" in what way? On an average day, I use ~10-15% of my max charge, with a max range of ~200 miles, +/- a bit depending on outside temperatures. I actually have the "hilltop reserve" feature turned on so I have regen brakes available always, which stops charging at 87%.

    Most people do not need their full charge capacity, it's just nice to have for the occasional road trip. With improved charging networks, ~100 mile range would he plenty for the vast majority of people for the vast majority of days.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    ~100 mile range would he plenty for the vast majority of people for the vast majority of days.

    Depends on where you live, what you do... while it's true that a back and forth to work and the market car is fine with 100 miles of range, that's a lot of garage space to take up for a car that can't get you to the next town and back on a weekend.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    for a car that can't get you to the next town and back on a weekend.

    Hyperbolic much?

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    It's hilarious how every EV thread on the Internet always has one person who is like "well I can't set a land speed record for my daily trip to the one taco bell I like which is 376 miles away because my chalupas will get cold if I have to charge for 20 minutes."

    Meanwhile everyone who actually owns an EV is like "yeah it really isn't a big deal, I get 400 mile chalupas all the time"

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    100 miles takes like an hour and a half. Presumably there would be an opportunity to charge (as in the hypothetical future example, the grid has been built out more).

    And on road trips, it's best to take frequent stops to stretch your legs anyway. Why should anyone need a vehicle that can go six hours without refueling/recharging?

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  • [+] -6 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    So, the next town over is ~40 miles, keep 20 miles of range for running about town during the trip / reserve. We stretch our legs when we get there, and while 4 charge points are avaialble in that town, how reliably can we access them if we go on a crowded day? How much of our day do we want to spend worrying about getting a charge?

    Meanwhile, dead dinosaurs can get our full sized pickup truck there and back 4 times between fill ups.

    In some hypothetical future where charge stations are as plentiful as petrol stations, sure, 100 miles of range isn't bad. In today's world, by the time you're down to 40 miles of range remaining, it's time to find a charge point ASAP or risk needing a tow.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Well you're moving the goal posts, because this chain of comments is about "when the grid is built out more, EVs will be a viable option for more people." So your "In today's world" argument is irrelevant to the conversation.

    Also, in today's world, people are still capable of planning ahead to make sure they don't run out of juice. You have to do the same with gas engines when you're crossing the mid-west, where fuel points can be a hundred miles or more apart. People still run out of gas on their normal routes if they forget to pay attention.

    EVs are currently used so sparsely that chances are the wait for a charging port is quicker than the line for gas at any highway rest stop. There's no reason why the EV infrastructure can't be built out more as adoption grows. It should already be being built out for future-proofing, but the fossil fuel lobby won't stop crying about it because they don't want people to consider EVs an option.

    If you want to keep burning dead dinosaurs and accelerating global warming, no one's stopping you. Just don't force us to listen to you crying about it when gas is $10 a gallon and your pickup can only get you 5-10 mpg.

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I wouldn't mind living in your fantasy world, I do what I can to make it closer to reality, but of late that fantasy is slipping farther away not getting nearer. Yes, I can buy an EV today - no, I can't really call it an economical replacement for a dead dino burner, not even at $5 per gallon - for our driving patterns.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    This whole conversation is about it becoming more economical as the technology develops.

    In the context of some places (cough, america) trashing initiatives related to EVs, your naysaying isn't doing much to bring it closer to reality...

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    That's an illogical and likely outdated perspective on battery capacity. I voluntarily charge my battery to 80%, both to prolong its life and because 80% is more than enough to meet my driving needs with only one charge per week. I also get a faster charge due to the taper of the power curve.

    80% for me is 400 km / 248 miles of range, or 57 km / 35 miles per day. My commute to work is twelve miles each way.

    If my battery drops to 80% capacity over a decade, it won't affect me. I'd still have plenty of overhead with 400 km / 248 miles between charges.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    It would be super easy to make it modular so the batteries can be swapped when they reach end of life. A well maintained lithium cell can last decades though if it is charged and discharged at relatively low rate.

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  • [–] 44 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    Not having read the article, I wonder if building an elevated array of photovoltaic panels over the batteries would make sense by shading them from the sun, giving more passive help with heat? A simple roof would be cheaper but solar panels would mean the site is also producing electricity, not just storing it.

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  • [–] 19 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    They should make "grid modules" like that out of shipping containers - racks of batteries inside with solar panels on the roof. Maybe the panels could be on swing-out hinges to make them able to stow away more compactly for transport on top, and then fold out for more surface area after the module is installed on site

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  • [–] 19 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    The point of going low density is to reduce cooling requirements. Cramming them into a shipping container is the exact opposite of that.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Where I live the larger problem is heating the battery in winter. Cooling needs to be done as well, but batteries don't like the cold temperatures we get in winter.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    They do this for festivals and construction sites and such in conjunction with the typically fossils generators nowadays. Not everywhere but it definitely exists. Exactly like described: Shipping container, batteries and inverter inside, 4 legs, and 2 Shipping container long solar arrays mounted to a frame. Set the container down anchor the legs put the panel frames up connect some wires and your ready to go.

    I'm pretty sure you could just buy that too if you wanted a head start on your off grid cabin.

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  • [–] 24 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    Why does CleanTechnica have a disclaimer saying its articles are for "entertainment only"?

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    To not get sued, if there is an error which causes harm, I assume?

    It seems free for CleanTechnica to include the disclaimer, so I guess why not have the disclaimer?

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Credibility literally doesn't and hasn't matter in over a decade. Out side of corrupt academia, basically fucking no one gives a single flying fuck about credibility.

    Which in and of it self IS a huge problem. The majority of people don't understand what makes something creditable, the majority believe who ever says things the loudest and first to be the truth.

    And academia has monitized and locked shit away so hard that even if you do care as a normal person. It's more expensive and effort than it's worth for your avg person. So they just don't have reasonable access to good quality information.

    So most people have just been conditioned to trust anything and everything. Or become paranoid to the point of distrusting anything and everything.

    It's a fucking shit show.

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  • [–] 22 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    The thumbnail and picture in the article is like an uncanny valley graveyard. It looks like a graveyard, but isn't.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Spreading packs out in the open air helps avoid the need for active refrigeration, and stripping away moving parts like fans and filters minimizes potential reliability failures.

    Hasn’t Ms. Sun ever heard about that other thing that is out in the open? The sun?

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago
    [–] 7 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    I suspect he is wrong - the average car is 12 year old, which means there are a lot of cars older than 24 years old still on the road. Of course cars do wear out and get scrapped, but just looking at broad statistics we should expect most EVs made since 2002 (after the EV1) are still on the road (this is broad statistics which doesn't consider fuel source at all - even though it is an important consideration I don't have data!) Which is to say there is no reason to think there are large numbers of batteries ready to be recycled. The first EVs are only now entering the phase where they are going to start getting scrapped - and there were not a lot of any of them made.

    There likely is a good business to be made recycling used car batteries. However if you want to get into it now is not the time to expand/scale , now is still time to be designing and testing the machines and processes you will be using when you scale. Anyone in this business should expect to still be losing many - your business plan should have real data showing real data of when you expect cars to be scrapped in numbers large enough to be wroth scaling.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    One thing to keep in mind is that the car may outlast the battery, by a fair amount.

    If you look at Prius, there's been a fair amount of battery replacement there. I vaguely recall seeing that first gen Nissan Leaf batteries degraded enough to need replacement fairly quickly. On the flip side, seems the more carefully managed solutions with liquid cooling and maintaining buffers have been more robust than expected.

    Still, I ultimately agree with the assessment that the volumes aren't going to be there for a long time, just that batteries coming out can happen before the car is scrapped. But in terms of volumes, prior to 2019 there just weren't enough batteries going to be expecting much either way yet.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    But isn't this exactly the thing the article is talking about? Using the degraded batteries that are no longer fit enough to be used in cars, but might still have 60-70 % capacity and be well suited for slow charging and stationary energy storage.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago

    Yes, I'm just unsure when the volumes hit.

    Evidently they do seem to indicate a battery intake rate consistent with about 250,000 EV batteries a year.

    Globally about 30 million cars are junked a year, so as EV adoption raises then they could reasonably get 8 fold more batteries even while splitting with other companies.

    But they have a chokepoint that means they can only use a fraction of the batteries they get already, so more batteries won't help them right now.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    So far car batteries are mostly lasting except for the Leaf which has a known bad design. Everyone else has put in proper thermo management, and so while batteries have degraded a bit over time, the cars are generally considered perfectly usable. I'm sure there are exceptions, but in general there isn't demand for battery related repairs in EVs. Only time will tell of course.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago*

    They discuss this in the article. Used batteries are not their bottleneck, at least for this company. The issue is incorporating all the different designs/chemistry's/states safely:

    The company has more than one GWh of batteries ready to go and expects to add another five GWh this year. Ultimately, the bottleneck to scale isn’t battery supply — Redwood takes in more than 20 GWh of batteries each year. is the safety qualification process required to put batteries out in the field. Sun explained that the core architecture, racking, pack manager, and software can handle multiple chemistries and form factors, but getting them past hurdles like the rigorous UL 9540A fire safety testing Redwood recently passed in-house is another matter.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    Maybe, but that isn't clear. Like I said, I don't have fuel source statistics, even though that is important. I suspect it is too early to gather those statistics.

    The Prius has some battery replacement, but my impression is most of them the battery lasts for life, only in a few cases is it seen as worth it to replace a battery (or just a dead cell?). EVs have not been around long enough to really develop this industry - if it ever will develop.

    The leaf is an outlier - their battery management system was poor and it killed the battery in ways that nearly every other make avoids. The leaf sold in enough numbers, long enough ago, that I'd expect to see an industry to replace the battery if one will happen and it doesn't seem to be as large as one should expect. This is a sign of something - but what it is too early to tell.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago