890
systemdeez nuts (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 201 points 1 year ago

Someone please convince me why I should hate systemd because I still don't understand why all the hate exists.

[-] [email protected] 119 points 1 year ago

The idea as far as I can tell is that it's responsible for too many things and gives a massive point of failure.

[-] [email protected] 205 points 1 year ago

Man, wait until these people hear about the filesystem and kernel.

[-] [email protected] 63 points 1 year ago

The very existence of a defined kernel is an insult to the Linux philosophy

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[-] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago
[-] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago
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[-] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

In some ways I think the filesystem is philosophically the exact opposite of systemd


I can boot my system with an ext4 root, with a btrfs /home...or vice versa. Or add some ZFS, or whatever. The filesystem is (with the exception of some special backup schemes) largely independent of the rest of the system, despite being of core importance.

On the other hand, I can't change my init system (i.e., systemd) without serious, serious work.

[-] [email protected] 65 points 1 year ago

It's also "infectious" software. The way systemd positions itself on the system, it can make it more difficult for software to be written in an agnostic way. This isn't all software, and is often more of a complaint by lower level software, like desktop environments.
https://catfox.life/2024/01/05/systemd-through-the-eyes-of-a-musl-distribution-maintainer/ This isn't a terrible summary of some of the aspects of it.

Another aspect is that when it was first developed, the lead on the project was exceptionally hostile to anyone who didn't immediately agree that systemd definitely should take over most of the system, often criticizing people who pointed out bugs or questionable design decisions as being afraid of change or relics of the past.
It's more of a social reason, but if people feel like the developer of a tool they're forced to use doesn't even respect their concerns, they're going to start rejecting the tool.

[-] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago

What do you expect from an init system? It's like saying my cpu is infectious because my computer depends on it

[-] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago

It's that it also decided to take over log management, event management, networking, DNS resolution, etc, etc.

If it were just an init system that would be perfectly portable. People were able to write software that way with sysv for years.

It's that in order to do certain low level tasks on a systemd system, you need to integrate with systemd, not just "be started by it". Now if a distro wants that piece of software, it needs to use systemd, and other pieces of software that want to be on that distro need to implement integration with systemd.

A dependency isn't infectious, but a dependency you can't easily swap out is, particularly if it's positioned near the base of a dependency tree.

Almost all of my software can run on x86 or arm without any issues beyond changing compiler targets. It's closer to how it's tricky to port software between Mac and Linux, or Linux and BSD. Targeting one platform entails significant, potentially prohibitive, effort to support another, despite them all being ostensibly compatible unix like systems.

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[-] [email protected] 60 points 1 year ago

My understanding is that some people are die hards to the software philosophy of "do one thing really well". systemd at the very least does many different things. These people would prefer to chain a bunch of smaller programs together to replicate the same functionality of systemd since every program in the chain fits the philosophy of "does one thing really well".

[-] [email protected] 47 points 1 year ago

For me it’s 3 things

  • Do one thing and do it well
  • Everything is a file in Linux
  • human readable logs

Systemd breaks all three of though by being monolithic and binary. It actually makes you have to jump through more hoops to do things in certain cases. I understand it’s a mindset shift but it really starts making it feel more like Windows with how it works and the registry and event log.

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[-] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago

People don’t like it because it’s declarative. It felt cool to be able to just put bash files into certain directories to have them executed on startup. That was elegant, in the sense of “everything’s a file”.

systemd is more of an api than a framework, so it’s a different design paradigm.

I hated systemd until I printed out the docs, for some coffee, and sat in a comfy chair to read them front to back. Then I loved it.

Mostly I hated it because I didn’t know how to do things with it.

Also, “journalctl” is kind of an ugly command. But really, who gives a fuck. It’s a well-designed system.

And if a person absolutely must execute their own arbitrary code they can just declare a command to execute their script file as the startup operation on a unit.

[-] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Your comment summarizes my entire programming career.

These steps:

  1. Be taught that there's a specific way to do something because the other ways have major issues

  2. Find something that goes against that specific way and hate it

  3. After a lot of familiarity, end up understanding it

  4. Have a mix emotion of both loving it because it functions so well and hating it because it doesn't align with the rules you've set up

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[-] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago

It's different from what the init system was like in the 80's.

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[-] [email protected] 96 points 1 year ago

He uninstalled systemd, now his computer is not doing systemd things anymore by his retelling. Seems like it worked fine. Yet he asks for a solution of a problem. Maybe he needs to state the problem.

[-] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago

This is like the Linux equivalent of deleting system32

[-] [email protected] 53 points 1 year ago

Nah, more like deleting explorer.exe.

There's isn't really a Windows equivalent for this, as Windows doesn't give you control on this level.

It'd be as if you could delete services.msc but also the runner behind it.

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[-] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago

I don’t think you’ll get a cli if you delete system32.

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[-] [email protected] 84 points 1 year ago

I removed and sold the wheels of my car, now it does not move.

[-] [email protected] 71 points 1 year ago

I removed the transmission from my car but now it won’t drive

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[-] [email protected] 55 points 1 year ago

All these files are backed up in /System32 folder

[-] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago

Seeing it with a forward slash is just weird.

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[-] [email protected] 53 points 1 year ago

Best way to fix that is to go back in time and not do that

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[-] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago

Install sysv, return to monke

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[-] [email protected] 45 points 1 year ago

Lol this reminds me of a time when I had KDE desktop environment installed on vanilla ubuntu. I thought I didn't really need ubuntu's default desktop environment and decided to 'purge' it. I quickly realized my f up when it deleted so many packages and ui started to act weird, I copied the shell's output to a file just incase, and sure enough I couldn't login with ui on next reboot. I was somehow able to login to shell and with some awk magic I was able to parse the text file to get all the packages I deleted and lo and behold everything worked just fine. Linux let's you f'up your OS but it also let's you fix it, it's just a skill issue.

[-] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Linux let's you f'up your OS but it also let's you fix it, it's just a skill issue.

Yeah, there's something about Linux that makes me feel like if something breaks in it, the only reason I can't fix it personally is because I lack the skills to fix the problem. Just feels nice, really.

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[-] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago
  • Linux lets* you
  • also lets* you fix it
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[-] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Now remove the rest of the OS; it’s bloat.

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[-] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago

I updated my sources.list to something non-existing at some point and run sudo apt update && sudo apt dist-upgrade -y && sudo apt autoremove once and it also basically uninstalled everything. But that didn't even matter, I popped in a recovery disk and could reinstall everything. Pretty great to be able to do all that with Linux, fuck everything up in an instant but after a few hours everything is back again

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[-] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago

How the fuck is login and "the command line" still working? Maybe they did not reboot.

[-] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

The reboot probably sent him straight to a virtual console.

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[-] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago
[-] [email protected] 44 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom.

Gotta love this linux rhetoric, man! It's so out there.

[-] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago

I don't want to be in control of starting up all the services during boot.
I want the init system to do that.

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[-] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago

install that rm -rf theme

[-] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

Run installation media and copy systemD over to the system

[-] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago

For real though, if you break ANYTHING in Linux, it can probably be repaired through live image on your flash drive.

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this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2024
890 points (98.7% liked)

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