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there's a reason it's "hard out there" you know (OC) (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by to c/memes@lemmy.world
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This comment section: "Actually I'm pretty sure the bike fell over for reasons unrelated to the stick"

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[–] -3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Nobody is arguing for "elevation"

I think validating the claim that young men are specifically being treated worse than others in similar demographics is a tacit validation of allowing them to maintain their hierarchy.

However, when it's men who feel wronged you ask them to turn the other cheek. Man up. Deal with it.

I can't control how people feel? If someone feels wronged, but can't explain how or why, am I supposed to genuflect in agreement? If two people are struck in the face, and only one of them cries, should I ignore the stoic? We should be improving the lives of all young people, not just the ones who shout about it the most.

The fact of the matter is it's exactly this dogmatic rejecting of men that pushes them towards people like Andrew Tate.

I'm not rejecting that young men face problems, I'm just claiming they don't face any problems more dire than anyone elses problem in the same demographics.

You just interpret that as rejection because you don't empathize with the others.

We shouldn't tolerate the intolerant, but if we truly seek to defeat it we must understand it and treat the systemic issues that cause it to arise.

And we do that by being more concerned about the problems of young men than others?

It's not the romantic ideal of the rebel taking down the empire in a victorious display of self-satisfaction, but it is the method that gets lasting results.

What do they want, what are you willing to give them? According to the men's right movement, their problem is that women are too free to turn down their advanced, women are too educated, no one wants to be their trad wife, and that there's just too much competition in the job place because of things like affirmative action.

If that's their problem, I don't care, and I don't really feel like he needs to validate their opinion.

I've never stood on anyone's heads, least of all yours. I'd appreciate it if you could at least treat the next generation with the same respect.

You are an individual.....we are talking about socioeconomics. We are talking about the systemic abuse that's affected every demographic in America besides white men since the inception of this country.

Do you think the golden era of American history that the men's right wants to revert to was shared by everyone in the country? That black families were able to afford a spacious house and take care of a large family on one person's income? No, that was only a possibility for certain demographics. White men were given free home loans from the government, black families were sent to the projects, and women weren't even able to open bank accounts.

You aren't worried about the next generation, you're only worried about the next generation of young white men.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Progress isn't a competition, there need not be losers. We can acknowledge two things being bad at the same time. As we type there are children being forced to mine toxic cobalt with no protection just so we can have these electronics to argue. How can we argue our lives are any bad compared to them? Might as well put off anyone's progress until we finally beat out the modern salve trade. It's a unproductive way of thinking.

    Do you think a newborn "white male" as your oppressor too? Someone who has never had the chance to do anyone wrong? Must they really be subject to your scorn?

    And what of the white men today? If they gain nothing from your progress, then why must they be concerned with it? After all you seem to think that white men as a class have the ability to crush others with their privilege. How could we expect these people to work in the interest of a movement that only seeks to take from them indiscriminately? And wouldn't it be natural for them to simply follow the example that you have given them? Be wrathful, spiteful, hateful, boil down human beings to their perceived class, do anything to get a win for their own group. Hell just look at the news, abortion rights are being repealed in America. This is happening in real time, and I promise you neither of us are happy about it.

    Socioeconomics can say whatever it wants about groups and demographics and "numbers this" or "numbers that", that doesn't change the fact that we are individuals in a world of many other individuals. Privilege, true and quantifiable privilege, is always relative and we should listen when people tell us about their problems, since it will encourage and empower them to do the same.

    We can together to build a world that's better for everyone, but that requires that we don't waste our lives away trying to hold each other down out of a need for revenge. Every step we take for ourselves or our own perceived group is a step backwards, and it'll be our children who will have to make up for that. Do you care for the next generation, and what you'll leave them to deal with?

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  • [+] -6 points 2 years ago

    Progress isn't a competition, there need not be losers. We can acknowledge two things being bad at the same time.

    Then why do you insist that we divide class solidarity among gender? Why not advocate for improving life for all young people instead of insisting that men's problems take priority?

    As we type there are children being forced to mine toxic cobalt with no protection just so we can have these electronics to argue. How can we argue our lives are any bad compared to them? Might as well put off anyone's progress until we finally beat out the modern salve trade. It's a unproductive way of thinking.

    Lol, what kind of rhetoric is that? Children in other countries work in cobalt mines, so it's okay if American kids work at McDonald's.......

    We are talking about equity in our own country, we are talking specifically about whether young men in the west are really experiencing more or worse problems than their counterparts.

    Do you think a newborn "white male" as your oppressor too? Someone who has never had the chance to do anyone wrong? Must they really be subject to your scorn?

    Lol, we are talking about sociology, not an individuals psychology. I don't scorn individuals for being a part of any class, but i do scorn individuals try and preserve the class hierarchy for their own benefit.

    And what of the white men today? If they gain nothing from your progress, then why must they be concerned with it?

    That's the thing, when we protect the most disadvantaged class we help protect every other class perceived as better than. This is a foundational to ideologies like feminism. If you can't charge a disadvantaged class with some accusation, then there is no fear for the classes perceived to be more valuable.

    This is one of problems with labeling white men as the most disadvantaged class. If we spend all our effort protecting A class that doesn't really need protection, then we are leaving people actually in danger out on a line.

    After all you seem to think that white men as a class have the ability to crush others with their privilege.

    Do you think white men today as a class have not benefited from generational wealth created by systemic racism? What do you think slavery was if not crushing others with privilege?

    How could we expect these people to work in the interest of a movement that only seeks to take from them indiscriminately?

    So now equality is stealing? Just because I don't think that white men are the most disadvantaged people in our country, I'm now taking from them indiscriminately?

    What is progressive to these young men, what else could they possibly want that other people have?

    And wouldn't it be natural for them to simply follow the example that you have given them? Be wrathful, spiteful, hateful, boil down human beings to their perceived class, do anything to get a win for their own group.

    Yeah..... Seems to be exactly what they are doing. You have heard of Andrew Tate, correct?

    Hell just look at the news, abortion rights are being repealed in America. This is happening in real time, and I promise you neither of us are happy about it.

    And your solution is to .....validate the men's right movement? You're literally claiming that men are not privileged, yet they are able to pass abortion laws. Further more you are saying that they are doing this because we don't baby them enough in progressive political spaces.

    Socioeconomics can say whatever it wants about groups and demographics and "numbers this" or "numbers that", that doesn't change the fact that we are individuals in a world of many other individuals.

    You do understand that we don't make policies around individuals?

    Privilege, true and quantifiable privilege, is always relative

    Relative to what....?

    we should listen when people tell us about their problems, since it will encourage and empower them to do the same.

    Oh yeah, I'm sure that encouraging the klansmen to air his grievances will surely benefit me, a man of color?

    but that requires that we don't waste our lives away trying to hold each other down out of a need for revenge.

    It's problematic to me that you think equality euates to revenge. I'm not saying to be mean to young white men, or even judge them. My only claims is that we shouldn't prioritize white men's problems over other demographics. And to you that means I'm thirsty for revenge?

    Every step we take for ourselves or our own perceived group is a step backwards

    And how does that apply to your original claim?

    I still find it hilarious that you haven't answerd my original rebuttal. How exactly are young men any worse off than anyone else in a similar demographic?

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