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Wisconsin judge sides with 11-year-old trans girl over her right to use school toilets (www.thepinknews.com)
submitted 3 years ago by to c/politics@lemmy.world
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A district judge in Wisconsin has sided with an 11-year-old trans girl over her use of the girls’ toilets and temporarily blocked school officials from preventing her access.

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[–] 45 points 3 years ago (44 children)

While this is welcome news, it's also depressing that we live in a timeline stupid enough that bathroom panics are enough of a thing that there are laws on the books like this to be struck down by judges (and of course, the fact that other judges are likely to reverse this ruling).

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  • [+] -40 points 3 years ago (43 children)

    Would you be ok with 17 year old boys to use the girls toilets at school if they just say that they identify as a girl?

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago

    What is the issue you have with it, really? You think that people are going to go into the bathroom and do something nefarious?

    Before asking us why we think it's okay, let's really drill down into what you're so worried about.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 years ago

    Yeah you're right, being trans isn't even a thing, it's all just perverted teenage boys who want to... Hear girls pee, I guess?

    Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you? If you find sexual gratification being in the same room where members of the opposite gender take a shit in a closed stall, you go ahead and be as pervy as you fucking want with it, but stop projecting your weird scat fetish on everyone else and just let people go to the god damn bathroom.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago

    Well if they aren’t a boy then it wouldn’t matter and I would be fine with my daughter sharing a locker room/bathroom. I’m more worried about her being shot and killed than someone who is trans in the bathroom with her.

    People don’t just wake up one day and go “I’m a girl! Hyuk! I’m going to go be a girl just to get in the bathroom! Hyuk!”

    People don’t do that, especially trans people. Get your head out of your ass.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (27 children)

    Two things to ponder if you dont understand why people might answer "yes.": Boys pissing in public on trees and in bushes is a normal thing, especially among circles expressing concern about a society that acknowledges trans people exist. Boys using toilets is a plus, at all ages. Second: every Porta potty in existence seems to operate with its gender neutrality without the same kind of panic. If you can square these two notions: Boys using a toilet isn't odd, strange, or worth a moral panic. You might then see your question isn't about toilets, and about gendered space and how important it is to have spaces that are exclusive and exclusionary based on something like gender, (or even... other things!)

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  • [–] -3 points 3 years ago (26 children)

    Of course my point is about having separate spaces that are exclusive to the two sexes. Males commit the overwhelmingly large percentage of sex crimes. Giving males free access to women’s safe spaces is not going to end well.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago (25 children)

    You're making the unnecessary leap of toilets>sex. And then further to sex>sex crimes. This is why I mentioned portapotties. These are gender neutral public toilets found all over the nation. Are portapotties offensive? Sexual dens?

    Toilets and bathrooms are perfectly functional as gender neutral spaces. The insistence that a transperson using the bathroom that aligns with their gender is somehow an invitation for sex crime just doesn't have much basis.

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  • [–] -3 points 3 years ago (24 children)

    Portapotties are single person. You’re not walking around in a portapotty with other people. There’s no possibility of someone peeping under/over the stall wall in a portapotty.

    Most public toilets are not gender neutral, they’re male and female.

    Again - it’s not that the trans person will assault someone, it’s the fact that it eliminates it as a “safe space” where women can go knowing there won’t be men in there. If you let trans women in you’re letting biological men in, meaning any man can now use that space simply by saying they identify as a woman.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (23 children)

    Ah, got it. You don't seem to be parsing between sex and gender here, which is probably why this is going to be a troublesome topic every time it comes up.

    I mean you extrapolate from "biological men" into "any man" way too casually to have a serious opinion on this topic.

    I mean, jist wait to you hear about this thing called homosexuality. No bathroom will be safe anywhere from anyone if people know about that!

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  • [–] -2 points 3 years ago* (22 children)

    Public toilets are sex based, not gender. They are male and female. They have existed since long before gender "wasn't a binary".

    A biological female that identifies as a man can't use the urinals, can they? No, because they don't have a penis. Toilets have always been made to accommodate the different sexes, not genders.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago* (21 children)

    It is the presence or lack of a urinal that makes a bathroom a safe space or not? Regardless of that tangent, toilets are not sex specific. (And before indoor plumbing becoming commonplace, outhouses and pit privies weren't exactly sex based either.)

    But at least you've honed in and have gotten down to it: you find toilets to be inherently sexual. I find that to be pretty weird. While I won't kink shame you, I don't think it's a good foundation for how handle human waste in public.

    (Stalls cam be made more private way more easily than public bathrooms be policed for genitalia conformance.)

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago (20 children)

    It is the presence or lack of a urinal that makes a bathroom a safe space or not?

    You're just being disingenuous now. You know that was not said in relation to anything being a "safe space". You know it was said to show that toilets are sex based and not gender based, because gender apparently now has nothing whatsoever to do with your genitals.

    Regardless of that tangent, toilets are not sex specific

    "If I ignore your very real and very good point, I can disagree" lol. Male toilets have always had toilets designed for biological male bodies, ie a "penis owner". That proves that they aren't "gender based", otherwise why would only 1 of the 2 of them have a urinal?

    But at least you’ve honed in and have gotten down to it: you find toilets to be inherently sexual.

    I see there is no limit to your disingenuity. You're the one arguing to try and let biological males go to the toilet with biological girls.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    You're forgetting the trough system in stadiums on top of ignoring the recurring point I've been making: bathrooms aren't inherently sexual. The injection of sexual acts and sexual crimes by accepting the jdea of trans people using the appropriate bathroom is the original disingenuous stance, so I'm sorry if you're taken aback. I don't meant to upset you if my fatigue at the "trans equals and enables peeping pervs" perspective. And come on now: A transwoman in a women's bathroom isn't using a urinal. A transman in a man's bathroom is also not using a urinal. There shouldn't be a problem there, but somehow having to know the genitalia of people shitting is less weird than letting

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago* (2 children)

    You’re forgetting the trough system in stadiums

    I mean this is the first you've mentioned stadiums, so there's that. I've never heard of urinals being in a female bathroom at a stadium. What stadium has troughs in the female bathrooms?

    recurring point I’ve been making: bathrooms aren’t inherently sexual.

    No one is saying they are. Apparently this is really difficult for you. The overwhelmingly large percentage of sexual crimes are committed by men (like 99%) and opportunity is one of the biggest factors in it. By allowing men to just openly use womens "safe spaces" you're inviting opportunity for more sexual assaults to take place. This isn't rocket science.

    If a pervert male wants to take photos of little girls on the toilet, do you agree that allowing him access to the female toilets presents him with more opportunity to do it? If not, explain your reasoning, because I can already say it doesn't make sense.

    We're also not just talking about bathrooms. Changing rooms, sexual assault centres, gyms, doctors, etc - the same applies, and once you start making legislation that takes away womens protections to sex based safe spaces in one area, you take them away for all.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    You're starting at the pervert male and are working backwards, which is kind of the problem here.

    That pervert male is already just as capable and already doing the things you're fantasizing about, which has nothing to do with trans people using their correspondingly accurate bathroom. It's really the bathroom of least resistance they're seeking, and somehow sex crimes are being displaced onto them.

    The hypothetical sexual pervert is not a credible argument here.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago*

    No, they’re not. Pervert men aren’t going in to women’s prisons and impregnating women. Pervert men aren’t going to rape crisis centres and assaulting women.

    With allowing anyone into these spaces, you’re now giving them access and the ability to do that.

    The bathroom of least resistance is and always will be the bathroom of their sex.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (15 children)

    Urgh, the notion that allowing trans people into the bathroom means sex crime is the original disingenuous point. That's kind of what I was trying to show you. Besides, a transwoman in a woman's bathroom isn't using a urinal. A transman in a man's bathroom isn't using a urinal. There shouldn't be a problem with that, and yet there are people just need to know the genitalia of everyone in the stalls. Like genitals need to policed instead of just abiding by a general social rule of public spaces regardless of sex and gender: don't be sexual in public spaces. Indecency and shit are still very real things that don't change with trans people existing and taking dumps, believe it or not. Now I don't mean to upset you, so I am sorry if you are taken so aback at my fatigue of the "trans = perverts" perspective.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago* (14 children)

    No one is saying trans people = perverts. Well I’m sure some are saying that, but I’m not.

    What I’m saying is that by allowing anyone to enter female-only spaces you remove the safeguards that make them safe spaces sin the first place.

    Are the trans people there to assault women? No. Does it open the door to perverts that do want to assault women to just openly use female-only spaces? Yes. That’s the issue.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (13 children)

    It only opens the door for perverts if you are, in fact, saying trans people = perverts.

    After all you're saying allowing a trans person to use their aligning bathroom is the same as allowing anyone to enter female-only spaces.

    (So you kinda are saying that. It does appear you might be one of those some.)

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago* (12 children)

    Sigh. Read my last comment again and try again.

    Even if there wasn’t a single pervert who is trans, allowing anyone to enter female safe spaces allows non trans perverts unrestricted access to these places.

    Do you understand? To allow trans people in to the opposite sex safe spaces means allowing everyone to enter them.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (11 children)

    It really doesn't. It only feels that way if you are incapable of differentiating between a sexual pervert and a trans person.

    Society can accommodate gender neutral bathrooms (meaning you don't have this social construct of genital specific genital policed bathroom spaces) alongside gendered bathrooms where people presenting as either gender can go to the bathroom. Where there is no neutral option, the closer aligning gender specific bathroom is better than the genital specific bathroom.

    Or you can have it your way with bathrooms where people's genital have to be declared, revealed, matched, or somehow verified to use them. That is the only way to achieve genital specific safe spaces that you're craving. Otherwise our society can go about accepting that people presenting as a gender to use their preferred bathroom regardless of their genital status.

    So how do you want verify if someone is trans or not when they're using the bathroom? Keep in mind you've already demonstrated that you're incapable of differentiating between a sexual pervert and a trans person.

    The sky is the limit here:

    How do you want our society to verify genitalia before providing public bathroom access?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (10 children)

    So you can look at a person and tell if they are a sexual pervert? Holy cow, so the fbi know about your amazing talent? That’s a game changer.

    What you can pick is a biological male. Every time, without fail. No one needs to look at genitals.

    You keep purposely disingenuously saying rubbish like “you’re saying all trans people are perverts”. What I’m saying is that you can’t tell who is a pervert, but you know that if they’re a biological male who is a pervert that you just gave them free and unrestricted access to girls bathrooms by sallowing trans identified people into female space because there’s no way to verify “gender identity” so anyone can simply say they are a girl if they want to access female only spaces.

    This isn’t hard to understand, and your attempts to twist it only highlight how weak your argument is.

    Sex separated spaces exist for a reason. They existed long before the current “gender identity” thing began.

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  • [+] -1 points 3 years ago (9 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (8 children)

    If its a transwoman you may not being able to identify the biological male part: that genitalia.

    The entire person is the biological male part lol. It's not just genitalia.

    That’s the whole point of this issue with trans people using bathrooms: it’s their ability to pass as the gender that is on trial.

    No, that literally has nothing to do with it. The issue with trans people using bathrooms is that they're wanting to use bathrooms that were specifically made for them not to use. They're not "gender identity" based bathrooms, they're sex based since they have been around long before "gender identity" was a thing.

    Trans people aren’t perverts who just one day decided to say they were a specific gender. But you keep bringing up that perspective as an equivalent.

    I haven't once said that, so you really need to stop telling lies and being disingenuous. You keep lying and saying that I'm saying trans = pervert when I have said no such thing.

    You’re just creating this hypothetical biologically male sexual pervert out of thin air and linking that to a transperson using the bathroom. It’s dishonest because it’s incorrect. Refuting that isn’t disingenuous.

    I'm not linking them to trans people at all. What I am doing is pointing out that the consequences of allowing biological males that identify as female into female only spaces is that any male can then use those female only spaces, making them no longer female only spaces.

    You've done nothing but tell lies and make up imaginary quotes so you can dance around the fact that you have no actual rebuttal.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (7 children)

    Sigh, you are saying those things. Repeatedly. Instead of acknowledging that I am pointing out that you are, in fact, making these claims, you saying I am being disingenuous and a liar. It's a classic defense, for sure, to project as such.

    Gender neutrality and the removal of gender and sex from bathrooms is not an inherent risk to anyone and does not subject them to aexual perverts. My evidence are things like the existence of gender neutral bathrooms not being sexual menaces upon people in public. This means that a step towards neutralizing either the gender, genital/sexing of bathrooms does not have an inherent co sequence of allowing perverts more access to bathrooms. It's a false equivalence and an unreal consequence.

    In fact, it's closer to say the sexualized spaces of genital specific bathrooms is what actually puts those spaces at risk of perverts. Since you're missing the point, the circular nature of this self fulfilling prophecy is what I was referencing previously.

    You can scream and sling insults about what you thing I have been doing engaging you here. That's what makes this a special place.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago* (6 children)

    Sigh, you are saying those things. Repeatedly.

    Show me where. Quote them.

    the removal of gender and sex from bathrooms is not an inherent risk to anyone and does not subject them to aexual perverts

    100% false. It makes female safe spaces no longer that since males can simply come and go as they please. Female safe spaces exist for a reason.

    sexualized spaces of genital specific bathrooms

    Who is saying bathrooms are sexualized? Only you. Very odd. Something being sex based doesn't "sexualize" it.

    Just more disingenuous arguments and lies from you.

    Me: 1+1=2

    You: No, 1+1=3. You're saying that 1+1=7 which is wrong.

    Me: No, I'm saying 1+1=2. Where did you get 7 from?

    You: You keep saying 1+1=7.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago (5 children)

    "Oh but you see, I have made you the soyjack, and have portrayed myself as the chad."

    It's okay if you're mad. I'm not disappointed.

    FWIW I have explained what I mean in every post and I have asked questions in every post you've completely ignored or haven't answered in the slightest. There clearly is nothing more of value that you can express.

    Your homework, if you choose to accept it, is to read up the thread and live with the questions only rhetorical for you to marinade upon.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (4 children)

    So no, you can't show me where and you can't quote them hahaha

    It is hard quoting things that don't exist.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    "hahaha"

    It's all there for people to read. Just doing my part in helping you get the ol noggin cranking on why you hold those opinions.

    So anyway, right: the numbers: 1+3 = 4 2+2 = 4

    (You got this!)

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (2 children)

    Still waiting on those quotes mate. How many more posts can you go without being able to provide any?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (6 children)

    Why do questions like this always sound like the person asking is just putting a question mark at the end of something they've considered doing?

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  • [–] -3 points 3 years ago (5 children)

    Ah yes, the people that are against letting men in the women’s spaces are the ones that want to go in women’s spaces. Impeccable logic you have there.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    Trans women are women, bigot.

    I'd imagine that trans women don't want to use the men's room because of people like you who consider restrooms to be peeping opportunities.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 years ago* (3 children)

    I'm talking sex, not gender.

    Quit the name calling.

    Also again with trying to deflect and call the people that want to stop any potential for "peeping opportunities" the ones that are the "peepers" lol. Make it make sense.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    Also again with trying to deflect and call the people that want to stop any potential for “peeping opportunities” the ones that are the “peepers” lol.

    I don't want 11 year old girls being forced to use men's restrooms. Why do you want that so badly?

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  • [–] -3 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    11 year old biological boys you mean?

    Why do you so desparately want biological males to be allowed in to female-only spaces? You're trying to make out that the people that don't want biological males in biological female toilets are the creepy ones here and it's bizarre lol.

    Why do you want 11 year old biological girls in the mens toilets with you? Why do you want that so badly?

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago*

    I think people should use the restroom that corresponds to their gender. You keep going on about meaningless biological differences and making up hypotheticals about men in women's restrooms. The story is about a girl using the women's restroom. Note: they're not called "Biologically male restrooms" or "Biologically female restrooms". They're men's restrooms and women's restrooms. Gender. The social construct. Not the genitalia that you keep obsessing over.

    Do you seriously believe that someone would go to all the trouble of dealing with the bullshit that bigots are delighted to put trans people through just to perv on people in the commode? Do you think the 11 year old plaintiff in the story is doing that? Are you really gonna libel an 11 year old?

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