this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2023
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where's everyone else's nuance in this thread? Is it just me who needs to write a carefully worded diplomatic letter?
You want my opinion, I think we are making the same mistakes we made after 9/11, where we work ourselves up into a fucking frenzy, ignore the historical background of what's happening, buy in to a simplified narrative, and give vague blanket support to whatever awful countermeasures we're told are appropriate. Like the indiscriminate bombings that are killing hundreds of Palestinians now and probably not hitting a single Hamas fighter since they're all down in the fucking tunnels.
Or this collective punishment shit, which is a fucking war crime against the entire population of Gaza:
It starts to sound like "human animals" might refer to Palestinians in general.
Hi! Jew here, the perfect person to talk about this situation!
The continued occupation of Palestein is not a good situation under any circumstance except that by Israel holding that land it prevents the neighboring countries from invading the area and starting wars with Israel which is why the land is held. Feel free to ignore the whole "it's our birthright, it's jewish land" cause let's be honest, even that's questionable in the torah.
Moving right along, the continued occupation is the reason for the attack, but that makes it no more correct. Innocent people, potentially including children definitely including teenagers, have been murdered.
With that understanding out of the way, lemmygrad was defeded because users were actively posting in favor of the murder and in multiple cases posting/hoping/whatevering for even more of it. Guess what? That's 100% against TOS of lemmy.world. I don't like the situation the two nations are in but advocating for the death of innocent people is fucking disgraceful.
I take it as frustrated leftists overcorrecting in the other direction in response to media coverage that ignores the decades of openly racist ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and treats this attack as some sudden unprovoked thing out of left field.
While you're welcome to take it that way, celebrating innocent deaths of any group of people is abhorrent.
struggling to reach escape velocity with this comment, wording it is mentally taxing but the later it gets the slower I think
I can't speak for anyone or read the thoughts behind people's words online, but I know people tend to say fucked up things when they are angry and I know people are really fucking angry right now, myself included. That doesn't mean I feel catharsis watching religious extremists slaughter a village of Israeli settlers or shoot up of a fucking rave β but I feel a kind of enraged grief. Because that kind of barbarism and extremism is the inevitable fucking result of what has been done in Palestine. Extremism like that doesn't spring up in a vacuum. When you hear things like, half of the people in Gaza are children, and half of those children struggle with suicidal thoughts, and 95% of the fucking water is unsafe to drink, and most of the population is unemployed, and then you turn on the news and all the politicians and media personalities are throwing their unreserved support to the government responsible for it... and then I go on lemmy and I see comments talking about Palestinians like they're some kind of hive mind, and getting upvotes for it, it just feels like these attitudes are why the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians can continue. And I'm helpless to do anything about it. It's fucking maddening.
The problem is comments like theirs in such large numbers do nothing to actually help.
It's kinda like if someone were cheering on a homeless serial killer. (Not that they are serial killers but follow the analogy for a second) Dude once had a decent life, good job, family, good house the works. Then things outside of his control caused all of those things to be lost and him wandering the streets and he decided fuck it and started killing people. Now add to it that all of it was pretty publicized so now anytime he kills people you have people decrying the murder but you have people cheering that he's getting back for a world that harmed him.
Neither really helps sadly. If you really want to help, I think the best solution may be to work towards a career in diplomacy with a focus on the Middle East and to spend significant amount of time brainstorming solutions for the situation.
Letβs add to this analogy that the entire media is pointing to this homeless guy as an excuse to kill other homeless people
Not wrong we could probably just ignore media these days and be a bit happier
This is true, but doesn't make it any less abhorrent.
It just doesn't work that way. Maximum tolerance doesn't mean intolerance for the average, unrelated civilian that happens to belong to the oppressing group.
I actually agree with your opinion, but that's not why you were downvoted. It was because you concluded it had to be messages in support of Palestinians that were being deleted.
Look at the comment I'm replying to. It's net positive at this time, 7-3. The issue isn't what you're saying at all -- this comment is incredibly sensible and very apt condemnation of Israel's government.
The issue was the people who not only believed that, but also believed the Hamas was justified in killing civilians and everything else they did. That Hamas got a pass for it all because they were fighting Israel.
That should strike you and me as not only disgusting, but incredibly ironic. The extremes of this issue actually make the exact same argument, that X is justified in all its actions because Y wronged them. They just switch X and Y, and pick events from history that support their claim -- and there are events which fit both.
Without Hamas attacking though we wouldn't be talking about Israel- Palestine nearly as much. If you silently accept being genocided people across the globe will blissfully ignore, including the people right across the border. That doesn't mean the attack was justified, that's not the word I would use, as it lacks nuance. But similarly saying acts of terrorism are always unjustified lacks nuance.
It heavily depends how you define an act of terrorism. There's a difference between acts of terrorism and rebellion, although it isn't a clear distinction.
Is it a good thing that we're talking about Israel Palestine though? We're talking about it because innocent people have died, and Israel is seeming like they're going to do something horrific to innocent people too. How does this help the Palestinians undergoing genocide? The Hamas attack has turned a lot of sentiment against Palestine, which is unfair for the civilians.
I understand wanting to call attention to an issue, but the manner by which you do that matters a lot. I can bring attention to any issue I want by claiming it as manifesto when I slaughter innocent people, but it isn't positive attention in the slightest.
The nonviolent protest for civil rights in the US was successful because it was a very palatable alternative to the black panthers. Hamas already exists for Palestine. A nonviolent protest in Israel against their policies would've garnered positive attention to them, and possibly even worked.
Do you think the Black Panthers were a negative for civil rights?
Ideally I'd like to say a negative, but I don't think that's the case. They were a positive in the sense that they made what MLK was saying far more preferable. I don't like what that implies though is necessary for change.
There's that unfortunate modification to "those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it":
Those who do learn history are doomed to watch others repeat it
The difference is that you can still call out the Israeli government without supporting Hamas's deplorable actions.
Oh I already do. Not a fan of Israel's kind of shaky interpretation of the Torah for why holding Gaza is 'approved', and very very against Hamas as an entity even before all this stuff in October 2023.
It's a tricky thing, having a possible enemy right at your gates for years and years. For the sake of example, what if Russia as we know it was where Canada currently is? How does one remain calm when there are those plotting right in front of you?
Those civilians on both sides don't deserve any of this.
I agree with your message insofar that the Israeli government is absolutely genocidal. That doesn't make Hamas's actions any more justified tho, and that's most likely the reason why lemmygrad is being defeded: All the people saying that Hamas did nothing wrong, and those that call for the death of Israeli citizens (rather than the toppling of the Israeli government).
Unfortunately for you no one wants your opinion