148
Do you trust Proton? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/privacy@lemmy.ml
111 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

I've been using Proton Mail and VPN for a while now, and I'm just wondering how everyone else feels about them. I have this kind of inherent alight distrust of them just because they seem like they offer a lot for free and kind of have a Big Tech vibe about them, but there's nothing for me to really substantiate that distrust with, its mostly just a feeling. That being said, I do use their services as mentioned and they work pretty well, even on the free teir. So aside from that one instance where they gave that guy's info to the feds, is there any reason not to trust them with my data?

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 5 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Wait... okay, I think we're talking about two different things.

Emails you send or receive are not private. End of story. That's nothing to do with the provider; they're just not. SMTP is from the stone age of internet when nothing was private, and the attempts to graft a layer of encryption on top of it are from the bronze age, when encryption wasn't very standardized or well-tested against real threats, and all of that shows. Even if you put a significant amount of work into grafting full end-to-end PGP encryption on top of the best your provider can do to keep your emails private, it doesn't work. Emails are not private.

What I assumed you were interested in was in separating your non-private collection of emails from your real world identity. Proton + Tor will do that, bang on. If you're trying to send and receive messages which are genuinely private, use one of the fairly good options which can do that (Signal or Matrix maybe). If you're trying to send and receive your non-private emails without it being linked to your real world identity, use Proton + Tor. If you're trying to send and receive SMTP emails without people being able to read them, you need to rethink what you want, because you're not going to be able to get that.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    Proton can be anonymous, yes, just like every other email service. I think OP was wondering more about how they protect your privacy when you’re using them non-anonymously. I could be wrong though.

    But yeah, don’t use email if you don’t trust your email provider. Setting up your own email server for receiving mail isn’t too hard. Most ISPs don’t block incoming traffic on port 25, only outgoing traffic. It’s the sending part that sucks when you run your own server. Even if your ISP doesn’t block outbound port 25, your IP is probably already on several spam blacklists. :(

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
    •
  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    But yeah, don’t use email if you don’t trust your email provider.

    Not sure how much more I can simplify this: The "if you don't trust your email provider" has no place in this sentence. Don't use email if you need the content of your messages to be private. If someone's looking at Proton because they think it'll keep their emails private, then yes, that's a bad idea. But that's not because of the "Proton" part of that sentence; it's because of the "emails" part, and setting up your own SMTP service will do nothing to remedy that (in fact it'll make things worse because it'll put your own IP address into the "Received-By" headers of every email you send out).

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

    If you’re communicating with someone you know who’s also running their own email server, there is no problem with using email. Email is a good protocol, and it runs over TLS.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
    •
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    I'm not trying to argue or anything, but I think you should read this for a quite good overview of the issues involved with trying to secure SMTP email. You can also read any number of expert opinions saying the same thing, if you don't believe me or that article.

    If you’re communicating with someone you know who’s also running their own email server, there is no problem with using email.

    So, basically, never. I've run several SMTP servers in my time. I'm having trouble thinking of an example of when I might have been communicating from one of them to someone else who also ran their own secure SMTP server. If you're trying to set up a secure end-to-end communication channel with one specific person which involves work on both your ends, it'd be way easier and more secure to use some other transport protocol at that point.

    Email is a good protocol

    It is. 100%. Sorry if I gave the impression I didn't think it was. For all its age and some amount of minor stone-age baggage it brought with it, SMTP is genuinely quite well-designed and still serves its purpose 43+ years later, which is incredibly impressive. That purpose is, insecure but reliable and interoperable communication.

    it runs over TLS.

    Yeah, so does your HTTP connection with Proton. That doesn't mean the end-result system keeps your messages secure, any more than using HTTPS means Proton is secure.

    You can read the article I linked to above, but basically the short version is that email is by the design of the protocol subject to being stored or transmitted unencrypted at various intermediate places as it's being sent around, in ways that are by the design of the protocol impossible to prevent.

    You're not required to agree with me; you can think what you want, but that's how I see it.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I mean, pretty much everything in that article applies to HTTP too. SMTP basically always runs through TLS now. If you ever get anything over an unencrypted connection, it’s almost 100% likely to just be spam. So mostly that article is complaining about your email being unencrypted on your provider’s server. Well, your Facebook messages are stored unencrypted too. So are your Slack messages. And Discord. And Twitter DMs.

    I wrote and run the email service Port87, so I’m pretty familiar with how this all works. Email through a third party is about as secure as any other messenger. It’s not like Outlook.com is any less trustworthy than Discord.

    I don’t need to trust anyone to use Port87, because I wrote it, but my users have to trust me, just like Google’s users had to trust me when I worked there, and Facebook’s users had to trust me when I worked there. You trust thousands of people when you use these companies’ products.

    If someone is looking for end to end encrypted communication, I agree, they are probably better suited by another protocol. SMTP is really good at what it’s designed to do.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    If someone is looking for end to end encrypted communication, I agree, they are probably better suited by another protocol. SMTP is really good at what it’s designed to do.

    I agree with this. I'll pretty much leave it at that.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent