TheLeadenSea comments on Simon Pegg on the Cornell Rapists

Simon Pegg on the Cornell Rapists (thelemmy.club)

submitted 4 days ago by velma@sh.itjust.works [M] to c/fauxmoi@sh.itjust.works

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[–] TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works 34 points 3 days ago (23 children)

I'm not a man, but I don't feel like we should be guilting boys by insulting their entire gender, something they didn't choose to be, and for something they likely have no desire to do themselves. That's how you push people into the manosphere, looksmaxxing, alpha males and stuff, because they feel like they're not accepted by progressive people because of their gender.

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[–] glimse@lemmy.world 17 points 3 days ago

I am convinced that if #metoo was 10 years early, before I developed self esteem, I would have FOR SURE fallen into the manosphere. I just wanted to be accepted while popular culture regularly reminded me every day that the people I care about (mostly women, I had no male role models) think I'm evil.

I knew I had problems but I wasn't evil so who would I have listened to? Probably the group saying I'm good and cool and strong just for existing. The group promising to help me fix my self esteem.

I get it now, I know they're not saying ALL men. But the problem I still have with the popularity of that hyperbole is that it alienates the most vulnerable young men.

I don't have a solution to suggest. Just wanted to share my experience to support your stance.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (8 children)

we should be guilting boys by insulting their entire gender,

The post literally points out at that it isn't all men, but it's a lot.

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[–] BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 4 points 3 days ago (7 children)

If your slogan is that all men are the problem then it will be interpreted that all men are the target.

I saw another post that said "AlwaysAMan" and I think that gets the message across a lot better.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] 7 points 3 days ago (6 children)

What is everyone reading? The post literally points out that it is not all men.

“All men” isn’t a slogan here. “A lot of men” is the truth. Most rapists are men.

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[–] BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 2 points 3 days ago (5 children)

The post doesn't exist without the context surrounding the discussion. Quite a lot of the discussion I've heard is people bending over backwards to say they know it isn't all men but that it's okay to say all men are the problem.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] 7 points 3 days ago (4 children)

but that it’s okay to say all men are the problem.

Where?

The majority of rapists are men. That's the truth. We need to be able to acknowledge that if we're going to get anywhere near reducing rape and sexual assault.

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[–] BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 0 points 3 days ago (3 children)

This whole thing is a shitstorm on tiktok. My wife has been perpetually pissed off about it so I've heard plenty of people making these claims, men and women, from there.

No one is refuting of disagreeing that point, just that there are better ways of making that statement then shutting down innocent people defending themselves. Prejudice and stereotyping is wrong, doesn't matter who it's targeted at.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 3 days ago* (2 children)

The post literally points out that it isn't all men.

People are pissed off that yet another young woman has been raped and nothing was fucking done about it. It's not just a TikTok trend.

This has been happening since before I was even born. When is it going to get better? When are we going to stop pausing the conversation in order to reassure men that it isn't all of you and we're so sorry your feelings are hurt and maybe if we're raped a little quieter you can feel not as guilty about holding your fellow men accountable for their misogyny.

Stop crying about women being angry about how we're treated and start holding other men accountable.

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[–] BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 4 points 3 days ago (1 child)

You just type the same thing repeatedly without even considering what I wrote. Clearly you aren't here for discussion, just reaction. Not sure why you would be so focused on "did you read the post?" when you are so focused on not doing any reading yourself when people respond.

You asked where I heard people repeatedly state "all men", I answered. The Cornell situation is a hot topic right now and is getting a lot of engagement, so this is, in fact, a trending topic. Especially on tiktok. I can't change that you don't like that answer.

I get the topic is upsetting but you're fighting the wrong people. I don't know what the strategy of insulting the people already on your side is called, but I wouldn't say it's the right one.

When will it get better? When people stop taking the tribalistic approach and making blanket statements to create reactionaries. When people can identify the problem and solve the problem together without lashing out randomly and hoping that it gets fence sitters to somehow agree with them. You want the doofus men who don't see the problem to help? Stop insulting them. You can grandstand forever about how they should make the right choice regardless, and I agree, but that's not how humans work and we both know it.

For the record, I don't knowingly associate with anyone that is misogynistic and I always point out when someone I know says something that is sexist. Same as I would do when someone says something misandrist or racist. All prejudice is wrong. I also absolutely agree we absolutely need to hold people accountable for committing crimes. No one should be exempt from punishment for harming others because of gender, class, or race.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 3 days ago

I clearly meant it isn't a TikTok trend the way that the man vs bear debate was or in the way a new dance catches on. This extends beyond TikTok. This is a huge conversation that many people in many different areas are having because it keeps happening over and over again with no sign of slowing down.

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[+] nummy@lemmy.world -14 points 3 days ago (12 children)

If they can't handle the "don't rape women" message, I don't think anything can help them stay away from those incel-adjacent spaces.

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[–] GiveOver@feddit.uk 31 points 3 days ago (11 children)

"Society assumes you're a rapist because you're a man" is the message I think the parent comment is arguing against.

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[–] nummy@lemmy.world 0 points 3 days ago (10 children)

Isn't that the conservative framing though? Rarely I see that point coming from "progressives".

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[–] GiveOver@feddit.uk 15 points 3 days ago (8 children)

This seems like an odd thing to say. Like it doesn't matter if it's true or not, just which "team" is saying it.

I'm personally at 0% risk of slipping into the manosphere, but can you see how this sort of talk would push somebody more vulnerable into it? All I've said is that men are treated differently because they're suspected of being rapists and according to this thread I'm a) a conservative (nope) and b) part of the problem (i.e. I'm a rapist?). I'd never usually say anything because I know this is the way discussions always go, but I guess I was feeling ambitious today.

I just think it's fair to be upset about being treated differently because of the way you were born. You can't immediately start pigeonholing people if they show the slightest annoyance at being treated like a rapist.

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[–] nummy@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

Framed this as a question because YMMV. I've seen this take in manosphere-adjacent spaces as a response to whatever allegations are in the news. "Oh, now all men are rapists, huh?" or something like that. Without addressing the allegation itself, of course. It's like they are creating this monster that just loves ruining men's lives by wrongly accusing them of rape. It happens, yeah, but it's not the point, the point is to radicalize men into thinking that women are not equal to men.

I've met people (usually having traumatic experiences) who really think that "all men" are whatever. But this is an outlier in my book. In social media this point can be exaggerated (plus, "controversial opinion = engagement" plague) so I guess it can influence some people's opinions and views. But I still think the majority of people are not as radical.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] -2 points 3 days ago (6 children)

Whining about being part of the same group that most rapists belong to when the overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.

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[–] GiveOver@feddit.uk 2 points 3 days ago (5 children)

I don't think that's fair to say at all. The image you posted is specifically about #notallmen.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] 0 points 3 days ago (4 children)

It also says of course it's not all men, that's not the point. The point is, it's a lot of men....

You tell me. What group of people has the most rapists?

It's not all men. But to ignore that most rapists are men is to be willfully ignorant and changing the conversation from 'how do we prevent' to 'soothe the men who aren't rapists because they feel bad that other men are rapists'.

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[–] GiveOver@feddit.uk 3 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Nothing you said is wrong there, I'm just saying it sucks on our end too. It sucks that women would rather walk past a bear than me, purely because of the way I was born. Sucks that if I mention being upset about it I get told that "I'm the reason she picked the bear". So much vitriol. I can handle it but I know lots of men can't and end up in Andrew Tate's lap. This entire thread is a perfect example. It's not helping.

And I know you're probably going to reply and say that women have it worse because they get raped, and you're right, but it doesn't make me feel any better the next time a woman gives me a wide berth in the park for no other reason than my gender.

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[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 1 point 3 days ago

I can handle it but I know lots of men can’t and end up in Andrew Tate’s lap. This entire thread is a perfect example. It’s not helping.

So you're saying it's your "ability to handle it" that is preventing you from falling into Andrew Tate's lap. That you're a bad year of not being able to handle it away from becoming manosphere material yourself.

Why is it that you feel men need to be treated with silk gloves or be unable to help themselves from becoming fascist while women can be treated like shit 23/6 without doing the same? Why is your answer to that to treat men's violence as a given and ask women to please calm down to avoid upsetting him? Why do you back your sadness at being judged for your gender with a promise of violence if that continues?

I understand being upset that people would pick the bear; I myself would pick the man. But, based solely on this conversation, I would pick a bear over you.

Yes, patriarchy sucks for men. Take it up with the patriarchy, not its victims. We're just out here trying to minimize our chances of getting raped.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works [S] -2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 child)

I’m just saying it sucks on our end too

You know what sucks? Being held down and forcibly raped against one's will. And then your rapist not seeing any time in court or jail and allowed to attend the same university where you are trying to get your own education without being fucking traumatized. And yeah this is a predictable response because yeah, I get it sucks when someone is wary of you, but you can't empathize with that at all? That being raped is so much worse than someone giving you space on the sidewalk because they don't know you?

I can handle it but I know lots of men can’t and end up in Andrew Tate’s lap.

There's a lot of this in this thread - blaming women for being scared of being raped for pushing men into being even more misogynistic and hateful towards women.

When are men going to accept some fucking responsibility here?

And I know you’re probably going to reply and say that women have it worse because they get raped, and you’re right, but it doesn’t make me feel any better the next time a woman gives me a wide berth in the park for no other reason than my gender.

If you aren't a rapist, then why are you so offended when women who don't know you give you a wide berth? They aren't doing it to attack you. They're doing it to protect themselves.

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[–] Spawn7586@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 days ago

Personally I would not be offended, but I would probably think I smell, start trying to sniff my armpits without being seen, then blush really hard when I think someone saw me and start sweating profusely. After that I would probably keep my arms glued to my side making me sweat more. And then leave to fucking change

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[–] HasturInYellow@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

I see it coming from many many progressives and often very agitated women (not saying they shouldn't be agitated) who seem to be lashing out at a generalization of those who have hurt them.

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