No seriously where are they?

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[–] 3 points 1 day ago (6 children)

it's more that there's going to be factionalism and separatism with decentralization faster than otherwise, not the need for a "strong leader". would a spatial hierarchy of councils would be a manifestation of what you're arguing for?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (5 children)

    The entire history of centralized state apparatus is rife with factionalism and separatism, from antiquity where the death of a king led to a power struggle amongst heirs (expanded to the nobility under feudalism), to the past century of leftist parties that are better at splintering than anything else.

    Does that not reflect a reality where every hierarchy has fractal struggles for autonomy? And is this not something corroborated by our modern understanding of ecology, neurology, physiology, and entomology of eusocial species?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (4 children)

    i confess i probably haven't invested the same study of the eusocial (i promise you didn't introduce that word/concept to me) as you have but if you are a communist you're converging on it from a significantly different memeplex than everyone else here, i'm inclined to go with the other guy's judgement for this reason at least until i've paid my own dues for studying marxist methodologies if for no other reason than that i haven''t gotten around to "reading theory". that said it's a shame that degrowth isn't centered more in spaces like this. i agree with that

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  • [–] 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

    Not sure where to say it but perhaps here… this whole thread about democratic centralism versus ‘decentralization’ seems to miss that methods don’t come in a vacuum. They’re tied to political practice and particular time and place. I hope nobody is advocating for doing what did something in a semi periphery country in the 1910s.

    As well, to say infighting is eternal to the reified concept of hierarchy and justify it on human nature obscures things. What causes factionalism? The struggle between correct and incorrect ideas is a cause. Another is the contradiction between theory and practice (see the decrying of ‘Stalinism’ for how this manifests). How will decentralization (in general, not as a specific outgrowth of a political program) prevent this issue, rather than make it more diffuse? A narrative where splits are a result of an abstract drive towards autonomy, where hierarchy is the foremost concern, again, throws away the depth which allows for meaningful analysis.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    How will decentralization (in general, not as a specific outgrowth of a political program) prevent this issue, rather than make it more diffuse?

    that is my thinking and i did mention it. eir response to me obscured the relative success of centralism at preventing this i wanted to maintain.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago* (1 child)

    I apologize, that specific section was more so directed at the other person you were responding to than you yourself. They were exemplifying what I was critiquing namely framing history through an idealist narrative, human nature talk, and missing of the dialectical (im not jargoning here it’s true) relationship between autonomy and centrality. Which is not ahistorical but deeply historically contingent. I hope my comments didn’t come off as an attack against either of you. It’s in the spirit of pointing out something I saw being overlooked.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

    i knew you weren't attacking me. i'll be frank with you, the other user makes me suspicious. i agree with you about eir appeals to a nebulous human nature, trying to blindside me with the grand sciences and statistics that back em up. there are fingerprints of lesswrong all over the place, i just don't know if it's a residual component of eir personality or not.

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