umbrella comments on If there's going to be a second wave of socialist uprisings in the world in the near future, which country do you think is going to become the first second wave people's democracy?

If there's going to be a second wave of socialist uprisings in the world in the near future, which country do you think is going to become the first second wave people's democracy? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 2 days ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) by folaht@lemmy.ml to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

68 comments fedilink hide all child comments

With China's popularity rising, there has to come a point where a country's population decides to say:
"We need to follow a Marxist-Leninist model pronto if we want to remain a functioning society, because capitalism isn't working anymore."
Which country is gonna say it first?

My guess goes to..

Pakistan

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 days ago* (11 children)

communism is the abolition of the state. socialism is the transition to a stateless society by using the bourgeois state against them and for the people.

marx himself (and later deng xiaoping, since the subject is the chinese state) believed capitalism and markets were necessary to develop productive forces before communism could happen.

please read marx before throwing names at people. this is the basics of marxism.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 11 child comments

[–] helix@feddit.org -5 points 1 day ago (8 children)

believed capitalism and markets were necessary to develop productive forces before communism could happen.

But when will the communism finally happen? I guess the people in power often fall into a conservative trap to keep the status quo because it's working.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 8 child comments

[–] elixir_fan@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago

But when will the communism finally happen?

After class struggle is done?

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (6 children)

by lenin's logic, when the global capitalist hegemony is finally defeated. communism can't happen while capitalists would do everything to destroy it. it has to be an everyone wants it kind of thing.

this is also why you don't see country-sized anarchist societies and why we need socialism first.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 6 child comments

[–] helix@feddit.org -2 points 1 day ago* (5 children)

So basically, we need to achieve world domination where most nations are governed by democratic socialists before we can defeat capitalism? That explains a lot.

Thank you for the explanation!

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 5 child comments

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 day ago (4 children)

not at all. i'm not a social democrat, and "social democracy" is not what any of the AES countries are.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] helix@feddit.org -2 points 1 day ago (3 children)

OK so capitalism and free markets are necessary. You need to have and dominate capitalism to end it. What's the intermediate governing principle? Communism? That's kind of a paradox, as we can't have communism within capitalism, or can we?

As I see it, China looks a lot like a one-party democratic socialist republic using capitalism to exert soft power. I might be wrong though.

Or are you talking about other countries which want to establish communism?

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 3 child comments

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

the intermediate governing principle is socialism. using it to keep the (global) rich down while we transition away from capitalism, into communism. though this is just the path china choose to walk: play along with global capitalism to develop their industry, yes.

though despite all that went wrong, lenin later showed us that you can indeed skip straight to socialism without capitalism or free markets and have it be even more advanced than what we have now in china.

a new communist revolution would look totally different in 2026, and would take a different character depending on which country it's happening on because it's more about people choosing their own path instead of having the empire dictate the washington consensus to them. this is the main thing but is what makes socialism the most difficult to understand by westerners who haven't lived imperialism.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] helix@feddit.org 1 point 6 hours ago (1 child)

thank you for the thorough explanations and your patience.

Can you explain the difference between socialism and democratic socialism? I'm kinda confused. The rest makes sense now.

Lots of things to google, tyvm again

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 1 child comment

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 hours ago*

democratic socialism is trying to achieve regular socialism through getting elected and slowly reforming capitalism away through the established capitalist methods laws and institutions, no need to spill blood for a revolution or physically take control away from capitalists.

my continent had a 20 year demsoc wave and all they managed to do was some poverty alleviation within capitalism. capital has a way to buy their way into lobbying and influencing everything and if you don't take it's control down straight up it's always finding a way to pop back up again.

vote for them if you are in the circumstance to have that choice, but know the most they will really do is buy you time with the un-worsened status quo. historically, organizing for the abolition of capitalism tends to be a less unsuccessful method of moving things forward.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent