DupaCycki comments on Forget what you read online: 94% of EV drivers won't go back to gas

[–] DupaCycki@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (11 children)

The cheapest EV where I live costs about 30x more than the cheapest ICE car, and about 5x more than the average ICE car.

At the same time, it has half (or not even that) the range and most of the controls inside the touchscreen.

Almost everybody lives in apartments. No chargers in the underground garages or near outside parking spaces. I only know of 4 EV chargers in a radius of 2km around my home, and I live in my country's capital.

I think I'll stick to public transport and cycling. EVs are not the answer to any problem. All that work just to have marginally less ecologically destructive vehicles.

To me it just looks like smoking vs vaping. Improvement? I guess. Worth investing insane amounts of resources into? Yeah, probably not.

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[–] betanumerus@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 month ago (9 children)

"30x more than the cheapest ICE car, and about 5x more than the average ICE car" - If you want anyone to take you seriously, you'll have to post models and prices.

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[–] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 month ago (8 children)

They are Polish probably, because their username translates to "asstitties"

Looks like new cheap EV can be 100k in the local currency, ICE beaters can be like 3k. So the cursory numbers at a glance check out.

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[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 3 points 1 month ago (7 children)

Well that's comparing apples with oranges then.

I can get a used Leaf or Zoe for £1600, and a new petrol Range Rover is over £100,000 so clearly EVs are more cost effective.

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[–] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

There are no used beater EVs in Poland

https://en.guazi.com/blog/insight/used-electric-cars-poland.html

Asstitties is completely correct about their analysis of the Polish used car market. They are nowhere near the tipping point of when it will make financial sense to purchase one.

I'm in Canada and the cheapest EV is less than 50k new, the cheapest new ice is 25-30k. It's definitely worth it, I'm in Toronto and level 2-3 chargers are plentiful, there will be less/different per km costs.

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[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

AI slop article with all the usual AI slop logic issues.

A subset of the issues because I don't have the time or the interest to poke every hole.

It doesn't address the initial apples to oranges / beater to brand new ridiculous comparison because it only considers prices of recently new BYD and Tesla (2024). Comparing a 15 year old car to a new car on price whether they are EV or ICE is just stupid
Your own AI slop link admits you can get older imports in from the rest of EU - usually Germany because of proximity and wealth. Something that used to be extremely common only a few decades ago and is only recently reducing most probably due to the increase in Poland's wealth. So saying older EV beaters are unavailable is straight up untrue.
The focus on battery health is both one-sided and ill-informed. Plenty of older ICE cars have massive costly issues - ask AUDI owners about timing belts and what that does to an ICE when they (very expensively) break. Furthermore you can easily check the health of a battery in almost all EVs - so no surprises on the motorway at 120km/hr when it goes bang and stops. You buy something that you know the state of (or dont buy it).
The focus on battery health is also wildly overcooked - battery issues almost always surface quickly (as they are usually build faults), and get fixed/replaced under warranty. Plenty of studies show that most EV batteries will last 150-300,000 miles/200-400,000 Km (links below) - longer than the expected life of most cars (average about 125,000 miles / 200,000Km before they are scrapped)
The REAL issue with comparing an EV beater with an ICE beater is that EVs have progress at a lightning fast rate over the last 20 years - early EVs like the leaf against a recent EV is like a model T against a Lamborghini. Whereas ICE changes in the last 20 are pretty small. A leaf has a shitty tiny battery compared to what you can get now - it is very definitely worth buying as new as possible, particularly given the mileage and hence the number of years you can reasonably expect to get

https://evinsightdaily.com/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last-real-world-data-and-battery-degradation-2026/

https://voltchek.app/blog/ev-battery-degradation-statistics

https://www.gadgetreview.com/300000-kilometers-and-still-going-the-engineering-secret-extending-ev-battery-life

If you like I can generate an AI slop article to match yours and pull apart all the holes one by one - the problem with them always is you have to do multiple iterations before they stop saying "good input, I didn't dig into that, let me have a look" (actually that's not quite the wording Claude uses - hmm I instantly recognise it when I see it but can't yet play it back - oh well you get the gist)

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[–] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

The link was just an example man. I don't speak Polish I didn't look up any sources in Polish.

https://plc.auction/auction/from-pl/fuel-gasoline

https://plc.auction/auction/from-pl/fuel-electric

I see a ton of listings for sub 10k for ice, very few in that range for EVs.

I'm trying to say asstitties has a credible perspective.

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[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 2 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

It's only credible because you're taking a broken logic point and moving forward.

The broken logic is the comparison of a beater with brand new and an assertion that EV beaters are unavailable.

Your second link doesn't prove anything either way

First problem is I can't filter by price unless I'm registered, so I'm interested as to how you did so. Secondly the first link you provided states that the majority of beaters are sold on car lots not via auction (where you'll generally find the more expensive cars and if I'm not mistaken -edit missing words - that's exactly what you find on your second link). This link, in its own words is to facilitate the direct purchase of international cars from places like South Korea and the US, people aren't paying £3000 shipping to bring in a £1000 car. The same as grey market imports in the UK are always rare stuff you can't get locally.

You don't speak Polish, OK. You're Canadian, you have to have at least cursory french (it's mandatory right ?) do a search in Belgium and France for EVs under €3000 - that will give you a pretty solid proxy for what is available in Poland - for decades second hand cars went East to the former Warsaw Pact countries. That flow has slowed into Poland as Poles are much richer on average now, but it still exists and hence beater prices are fairly levelled across the EU bloc due to relatively free flow of goods (there are barriers but they aren't too bad)

(Scroll down the page it's at the bottom)

"PLC Auction provides direct access to international auctions of used vehicles (damaged, repaired, and undamaged)."

"One of the main risks when buying a vehicle from abroad is unforeseen expenses. The calculator on the website helps determine the final price of the car at the bidding stage. The calculation takes into account:

The lot price at the auction.
Auction fees and platform commission.
Delivery cost (logistics to the port and sea transportation).
Additional services (depending on the region and client preferences)."

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[–] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 month ago

First problem is I can’t filter by price unless I’m registered,

I know, I just scrolled through a bunch of pages.

You don't have to agree with me, and maybe buying from Belgium is a good idea or there's some reason we don't know about that makes it harder for the person to do that.

I think it looks like he's right 🤷🏻‍♂️

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[–] abrasiveteapot@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

Yeah, you Canucks have been getting screwed by the Yanks on this subject long before Trump took the mask off. I'm sorry you live next to a bully. Hopefully Carney will improve things.

However that doesn't mean you can extrapolate North American experience to Europe, they're utterly different markets that have had the phase out of ICE written into law for years and have been actively pursuing it.

I'm sorry but your personal experience isn't relevant to a ~~Canadian~~ Polish example

Edit to correct, left error with strike through 'cos its funny (yes canadian experience is relevant to canada of course lol)

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[–] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 month ago

Poland seems a lot different than here.

https://www.autotrader.ca/cars/reg_on/cit_toronto/ft_electric?offer=N%2CU&cy=CA&damaged_listing=exclude&desc=0&sort=price&ustate=N%2CU&zip=Toronto&zipr=100&lat=43.70011&lon=-79.4163&atype=C&search_id=10j4nmorvg2&size=20&srsltid=AfmBOor-ErrbLmltE7EddTUtZfEj5iKkogvDSbJ2EdVXgk0huSLBTQ2J

There's a ton of stock on very low cost older EVs here, I'd have an easy time finding something used that would work for me. I probably should have looking at some of these listings...

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[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

To me it just looks like smoking vs vaping.

your stack of strawmen there is huge, but this turd cherry on the shit sundae reveals how silly the entire argument was from the start.

we get it, you don't like 'em, go suck on a tail pipe and save the rest of us your exhaust

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