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[–] 19 points 2 days ago* (3 children)

Any movement that preaches intolerance and persecution must be outside of the law.

This is a common misconception about the Paradox of Tolerance, and I'm going to reference the person who invented it: Karl Popper in his 1945 work, The Open Society and Its Enemies:

I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

Popper argues that we should tolerate intolerance only up to the point of violence. That is, if one physically attacks us, we no longer have the burden of tolerance. Popper is commonly misquoted and intentionally misused to justify violence against disagreement, and that is clearly not his position.

The graphic above states that we should not tolerate "movements" which preach "intolerance." This is a subjective standard. I think Islam preaches intolerance. By this standard, I would be justified in banning all Muslims from immigrating to Denmark. This is why Popper used the much clearer standard of physical violence. Any modern society must tolerate disagreement - including "intolerant" disagreement. We resolve that intolerance at the ballot box. We cannot allow physical violence. No, someone saying mean words is not physical violence.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force

    He then goes on, in the paragraph you quoted, to make it clear that it's refusing rational argument that's a problem because it can lead to violence, not violence itself.
    Further, if you finish the paragraph it becomes clear that the opening statement is anything but a misunderstanding:

    We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

    You don't have to agree with him, you can be partial to rawles, but popper was not vague.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    He then goes on, in the paragraph you quoted, to make it clear that it’s refusing rational argument that’s a problem because it can lead to violence, not violence itself.

    Not just that. He also very clearly requires there to be the incitement to physical violence:

    and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

    I agree with the end of the paragraph. His definition of intolerance includes the incitement to violence, and what he argues follows logically.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    Read it again. He's using incitement to violence as a consequence to to be avoided, not as a driving factor.

    for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

    He goes on:

    we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

    He was writing at the end of WW2. He was saying it would have been fine to stop the Nazis at the start, before they were inciting violence because they couldn't be reasoned with.
    It's clear you don't agree with his position , and that's okay. You can just disagree with him.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 hours ago (1 child)

    Read it again. He’s using incitement to violence as a consequence to to be avoided, not as a driving factor.

    He's explaining the why. That statement is there for a reason, and your reading implies it's superfluous.

    He was writing at the end of WW2. He was saying it would have been fine to stop the Nazis at the start, before they were inciting violence because they couldn’t be reasoned with.

    The National Socialist German Workers' Party employed violence well before they achieved power. Popper's warnings are obviously an allusion to the Brownshirts.

    It’s clear you don’t agree with his position , and that’s okay. You can just disagree with him.

    This is catty. Like a little girl. I've extended you courtesy and I would appreciate reciprocity.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 hours ago

    Catty? "Like a little girl"? The hell is wrong with you people that you're looking so hard for insult where none is intended? I apologize for being too casual in my assertion that I think you're bending the work to fit your views instead of explaining why you think his views on tolerance aren't correct.

    Yes, I'm saying he included that statement because it's the "why". Suppression of intolerant speech can be justified because it can lead to violence. The violence or incitement thereto isn't a precondition that justifies suppression in his view, but the end state to be avoided.

    I'm not sure what you're saying by drawing a distinction between the Nazis and the brown shirts or spelling out the party name. I know the Nazis were violent before they had political power.
    That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    I disagree with this assessment of the text - assuming it's correct, I'm not familiar with the source.

    What this extract is saying imo is as long as it's possible to effectively keep in check and counter intolerance with argument and public opinion, suppression is unwise.

    But, tolerance should reserve the right to suppress intolerance before it becomes violent, specifically when intolerance acts in bad faith and refuses to participate in logical argument or debate, and instead denounces argument entirely.

    So the threshold is not violence itself, but one example of what "may" lead to violence.

    Just my 2¢ on the text (not my opinion on the topic).

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  • [–] 3 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    There is no way to reconcile your interpretation with the actual text:

    and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

    A preemptive strike is neither stated nor implied by Popper. I find that a dangerous proposition for a democratic nation. It would justify any and all manner of violence based on nothing and anything but the subjective and active imaginations of the politically inclined.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    I've re-read it and still kindly and respectfully disagree about the meaning of that excerpt in isolation. Whatever the implications of this interpretation are, I have no idea because I'm not familiar with the work (however naïvely).

    Here's a detailed breakdown of my take:

    I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies;

    The key word here is always, so, intolerant philosophies shouldn't always be suppressed.

    as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

    The condition for not suppressing intolerant philosophies is if they can be kept in check and countered by public opinion and rational argument.

    But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force;

    Reserve the right to suppression if necessary..

    for it may easily turn out that

    Because the following things might easily happen:

    they [the intolerant] are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

    An example of what may occur when the first approach fails due to essentially bad faith, and the reasoning for why to reserve the right to suppression. But it doesn't frame violence as the threshold for when to apply that suppression.

    Anyway, that's my take. I'm still assuming this quote is accurate - I haven't checked it.

    And once again I'm absolutely not agreeing with these positions or assertions about the suppression of intolerance, this is just how I understand the text.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

    This is the operative statement to which I'm referring. If the party to which Popper is referring is not "answering arguments" with "fists and pistols," Popper is not making an affirmative case for suppression.

    To be clear, he's not making an absolute statement either. He's not saying, "we may only ever suppress speech which is violent." However - and this is critical - he's also not making an affirmative statement that speech without violence should be suppressed. This is the original work and quote used to derive the Paradox of Tolerance, so I think it behooves us to heed that in this statement, he's referring to physical violence. Further, there are no statements of his in which he argues for suppression of non-violent speech.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (1 child)

    Thanks for clarifying the quote's source etc.

    I still kindly disagree with this understanding of the language though.

    To me that whole section is justification for why to reserve the right to suppression: because the intolerant may not engage with argument in good faith, and they may instead tell their followers to denounce logical argument altogether and be violent.

    The key word here is may, which to me means "this might happen". I basically read this as a warning of a potential outcome of intolerant philosophies - and why suppression might be needed and why to reserve the right to it - but not a threshold for when to suppress them.

    But, at this point it seems like we might just have to agree to disagree on the meaning of the quote!

    And once again, none of this is my opinion on the topic itself and I'm not endorsing a position, I'm only offering my understanding of the quote.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    I will try to address your statements in turn as I don't think I am doing a good job of articulating my thoughts. That said, I think we are closer than I originally believed.

    To me that whole section is justification for why to reserve the right to suppression: because the intolerant may not engage with argument in good faith, and they may instead tell their followers to denounce logical argument altogether and be violent.

    The section justifies when it may be reasonable to suppress incitement to violence. The "and" operator requires the incitement to violence in the premise: "But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols."

    Popper did not write "or." Both incitement to violence and rejection of rational argument is the [non-exhaustive] example Popper uses to justify the right of suppression.

    The key word here is may, which to me means “this might happen”. I basically read this as a warning of a potential outcome of intolerant philosophies - and why suppression might be needed and why to reserve the right to it - but not a threshold for when to suppress them.

    I agree. As above, the example he used it not explicitly exhaustive. There may be other reasons to claim the right of suppression. However, Popper never used any other examples as valid cause to suppress speech, and in the immediately prior statement, cautioned that suppressing democratic speech is "most unwise."

    Given this, the implied claim that Popper and/or the Paradox of Tolerance supports the categorical suppression of "intolerant" speech (as the comic does) are inaccurate.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago

    I guess my view on that section is still that it's just an example of what can happen and why to reserve the right to suppression, but not a threshold or reasonable scenario for when to apply suppression.

    for it may easily turn out that..

    To me, this really isn't saying: "this is one case where it's reasonable to apply suppression", but rather more simply: "because the following may easily occur with intolerant philosophies".

    Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to reply and expand more on your take. I think let's just say we understand it differently and leave it at that?

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