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Social Security can be saved. Scrap the cap! (thelemmy.club)
submitted 3 weeks ago by to c/workreform@lemmy.world
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[–] 28 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

While someone making millions should be taxed at 100% for SS like most of us, think about how much would be in the fund if capital gains were taxed that way as well.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago* (1 child)

    Enough to lower the social security age from 67 years to 6-7 weeks gestational age. Remove the cap, include cap gains, and UBI becomes a thing.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (2 children)

    Well, no.

    The thing is, if everyone's retired and nobody's working, there's no productivity, meaning there's either no money, or money is meaningless

    It could certainly be reduced by a pretty good number of years though. Enough that you start your retirement when your body and your mind is still "all there", you get to enjoy it.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    The thing is, if everyone’s retired and nobody’s working,

    Where do you get the idea that nobody is working with UBI?

    UBI isn't supposed to be your entire, or even your primary source of income. The most basic concept of UBI is supposed to be enough for a roof over your head, rice and beans in your belly, and that's about it. It's supposed to cover the absolute essentials, not your entire lifestyle. It is supposed to remove the desperation of subsistence.

    When a man is drowning, he'll do anything to survive. When his lungs start filling with water, he'll drown his wife and kids just for one more breath of air. When a worker is desperate, they will take any work on any exploitative terms that are offered, just to put a meal in their belly. That desperation drags down wages and conditions for everyone. The fundamental purpose of UBI is to ensure that even the most desperate among us aren't forced into exploitation, and in doing so, drag everyone down with them.

    There is no shortage of labor. We have a massive excess of labor. We have so much labor available that even though everybody currently needs to work, wages are so low that nobody has any money to spend on anything but essentials. The economy is stagnating because everybody is working, but nobody is buying anything.

    UBI is a long-term solution to this untenable situation.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    When people are retired, as per your comment to which he replied, they are not going to work much. You can not call it retirement when people work (roughly) as much as they do now.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    When people are retired, as per your comment to which he replied, they are not going to work much. You can not call it retirement when people work (roughly) as much as they do now.

    Here is the full text of the comment you are referring to:

    Enough to lower the social security age from 67 years to 6-7 weeks gestational age. Remove the cap, include cap gains, and UBI becomes a thing.

    "Retired" was not "per [my] comment" but from the "comment to which he replied". I didn't use the word; the other person did.

    I referred to the new, social security system as "UBI". Universal Basic Income. Also known as a "Citizenship Dividend". When we remove the caps, and tax capital gains as well as income, the "social security age" is no longer the age at which someone retires, but the age at which they initially join society.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Millions of people work for free every day, we call them volunteers. Many of our institutions including hospitals, parks, schools, sports leagues, museums, food banks, community theaters and zoos depend on volunteer staffing to run their programs.

    When I hear someone say no one will work if they aren't paid, I hear projection.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    OK but a decent minority of people would complain, no?.. "If someone had to spend over a decade of their life in college and grad school to be a doctor or something, and Joe just started driving a forklift out of high school, should they both be working for free?"

    As in volunteer work is typically general labor, while many things require very deep, specialized knowledge obtained thru years of schooling. Doctors, engineers, economists, etc. Im sure some people would still pursue those things out of sheer love. But I imagine for some people the potential of earning more is that extra motivation that pushes them down that path.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago

    The "volunteer" comment was rebutting the idea that there would be no productivity in a society where money is irrelevant. UBI is not a replacement of compensation for work.

    Presently, the first ~$16,000 you earn through labor are not gainful. That income provides your basic subsistence. You pretty much have to spend that much just to keep yourself alive in our economy. The remainder of your income is consider "gainful".

    UBI doesn't replace compensation for labor. UBI provides that subsistence income. UBI means that every dollar you earn through your own labor is gainful. Your subsistence needs for the week are met before you leave for work on Monday.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

    Doctors Without Borders, legal aid society, Plenty of credentialed professionals volunteer their services as well.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    That's why I said "typically". You didn't address the issue. 0.1% of doctors volunteer for doctors without borders. People will take issue with one person needing 12 years of schooling or having to work in awful conditions, that will be making the same as someone driving a forklift around a warehouse all day. Saving someone's life as an ER surgeon is not the same as being a delivery driver. How will you address the discrepancy?

    Do you not see the issue people will have with that kind of societal system?? Or are you just ignoring it on purpose because there is no good answer?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

    People will take issue with one person needing 12 years of schooling or having to work in awful conditions, that will be making the same as someone driving a forklift around a warehouse all day.

    That statement does not describe UBI. The whole "volunteer" line of discussion is absurd.

    The doctor and the forklift driver will receive the same UBI check, as will an unemployed person. The doctor will also receive a paycheck from an employer for their labor. The forklift driver will also receive a paycheck from an employer for their labor. The unemployed person will only receive the UBI check.

    Imagine the country as a publicly traded company, where each citizen holds exactly one share of common stock. Imagine that company pays a monthly dividend on that share. That "Citizenship Dividend" is UBI. Just because you are a "shareholder" doesn't mean that check is your sole source of income. That check is not the compensation for your labor. That check is the compensation for the government's use of your political authority in a democratic system.

    That check should be for an amount that provides "subsistence" income to the general public. Basic subsistence. Not gainful earnings. Gainful earnings come from compensation for labor. The forklift driver will be earning gainfully as soon as he clocks in on Monday morning, not Thursday afternoon, after having worked most of the work for subsistence. The doctor will be earning gainfully when she clocks in Monday morning, not Monday afternoon, after having worked the morning for subsistence.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    I did address, you then pulled .01 out of your ass, it stinks.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Oh? Yet I don't see you telling me what the number of doctors who've donated their time to doctors without borders is vs the total number of doctors in the U.S.. Which is why I had to look for it myself, and I found it's less than .1%. Sorry about your narrative :(

    And I'll place you in the "ignoring it because you don't have a good answer" category then.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago*

    Nobody should work for free, that's exploitation. UBI should provide basic assistance, and then people should be free to do what they want with their free time. Many, like myself, would pursue artistic goals, but many would still want to work and earn more money, and that's okay, too. Even artists may want to sell their work.

    The point is that nobody HAS to work for money, but they can if they want to. That's real freedom.

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