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Bernie Sanders urges progressives to vote Democratic in November (www.nbcnews.com)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[–] 26 points 1 month ago* (24 children)

I cannot tell you how many sanctimonious jackasses I've met in my life that think their non-action is "sending a message".

Staying home or doing performative nonsense like not selecting a candidate or voting third party is basically non-action, and virtually no one sees the message or cares.

I thought it rather silly when I was still in university and hearing it from peers. These days, when someone my age tells me they have been doing this for decades I usually ask him them who has gotten their "message" and what was done about it?

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  • [+] -10 points 1 month ago (20 children)

    voting third party is basically non-action

    Unless the elections are rigged any party has the same chances of winning, stop spreading misinformation and propaganda, voting a third party is as much action as voting red and blue is.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The overall election rules are rigged in favor of the D/R duopoly. I have several big posts, with sources, on the current statistics. To summarize:

    • 3 out of 535 members of US Congress are independent or 3rd party. One of them elected as R and changed in office. One won the D nomination before turning it down and running as independent
    • Fewer than 100 out of >7200 state level legislators.
    • Zero EC votes for a 3rd party presidential candidate since 1968, including Ross Perot when he won 19% of the national popular vote
    • No 3rd party was on the ballot in all 50 states in 2024, only 3 were in more than 10 states

    Unless you have an independent or 3rd party incumbent, or have some form of ranked choice in your district the winner will be either the D or R nominee.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Your argument is that elections are rigged because a third party never got voted for?

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago

    I'm showing the observations that would lead one to hypothesize that the elections are rigged against 3rd parties. If you can look at the gerrymandered districts, the ballot access rules, the minimum percentage of the vote needed for public funding, the plurality-based vote counting, etc and then combine that with the statistically non-existent representation of 3rd party and independent legislators at the state and federal level and not suspect that the elections are rigged against 3rd parties then I don't know what to else to say to you.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago* (12 children)

    Unless the elections are rigged any party has the same chances of winning

    This is not an accurate statement. Plurality voting inevitably results in a two party system, due to the spoiler effect.

    Until we switch away from plurality voting, voting for a third party helps the party you least align with. It's math. If you're thinking of a scenario where magically a majority of voters all vote for a third party, you're not taking this seriously; that is not a realistic scenario.

    Now, if you live in Maine, Alaska, or whatever other places that have switched from plurality voting (a) I'm very jealous and (b) you're encouraged to vote any third party as you see fit.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    If you’re thinking of a scenario where magically a majority of voters all vote for a third party

    That's literally what they're implying. They're straight delusional. And, unfortunately, there's a LOT of voters and non-voters out there that are as well.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    There should be a name for the fallacy where your stance presupposes that everyone in an uncoordinated system behaves in a coordinated fashion. Let's call it "The Green Party Fallacy".

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    If you’re thinking of a scenario where magically a majority of voters all vote for a third party, you’re not taking this seriously; that is not a realistic scenario.

    People voting for whoever they want is a realistic scenario in democratic elections.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

    Do you understand what the spoiler effect is? It's sometimes called "splitting the vote".

    It's why having, for example, two left leaning candidates and one right leaning candidate results in a win for the right-leaning candidate. With plurality voting the candidate with the most votes wins, without regard for whether that candidate has majority (more than 50%) of the vote.

    Let's imagine that we have a population of 100 people and the demographic breakdown is that 60 of them are left leaning and 40 are right leaning. In a two party vote, the left leaning candidate wins. Now imagine a three party election with a liberal, a progressive, and a conservative. If more than 20 left-leaning people vote for the progressive candidate, the conservative wins. Since the voters know this, they have strong incentives to vote for the left leaning candidate they think is most likely to get the most votes, not the one they most align with.

    It is technically possible for everyone on the left to all switch parties at the same time, but realistically impossible, especially considering that many people do prefer liberals over progressives.

    The only way we get more than two parties is by abandoning plurality voting, and if you're voting for a third party in a plurality voting system, you're helping the candidate you least align with.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    The world isn't divided in left and right, you are still assuming that voting for a third party is voting for blue.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    My examples assume those things, but you're free to switch them around as you like; it doesn't change the underlying principle.

    The key element of the spoiler effect is that a majority isn't required. If you have 100 candidates and 100 voters, someone can win with only 2 out of 100 votes.

    I am guessing that you very strongly do not want this to be true, but unfortunately that doesn't make it so.

    The good news, assuming you're an American, is that the states dictate how voting works. Some states, like Maine, have moved away from plurality voting for some elections. In those states there is no harm in voting third party, as long as your vote finalizes on the major party you most align with. If your state still uses plurality voting, now you know exactly what to push for to get more representative voting in your state.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    33% people vote blue, 33% people vote red , 34% people vote third party. Third party wins.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    Yes, but that's magical thinking. The spoiler effect affects voting behavior. You aren't going to get 33% of voters to do that. Even if that did miraculously happen, the "blue" voter is faced with the spoiler effect in the subsequent elections; the point is that voters generally understand that splitting the vote is counter-productive.

    This is not up for debate, it's a well defined phenomenon.

    If you want more than two parties, push to move from plurality voting.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    You are assuming that American elections are more democratic than they really are.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    How are they not democratic?

    Every couple of months a brand new movie comes out and millions of people go to watch it because they hear about it on ads. It takes less than a month to make something popular among the public.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Every couple of months a brand new movie comes out and millions of people go to watch it because they hear about it on ads. It takes less than a month to make something popular among the public.

    That's not a metric on how to measure how democratic a government is.......?

    Democracy is measured by how much access the average citizen has to influence how the nation is run. Compared to a direct democracy, the average American is pretty separated from the levers of powers. We are a democratic Republic, meaning that we do not directly vote for every law, but instead vote on representatives to vote on those laws.

    How these representatives are elected, how much power they have, and how they can operate in regards to their constituent's will are all ways that we are moved further away from the democratic process.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    LOL, it's not misinformation to state the fact that voting third party is basically pissing away your vote. There is no real serious third party option. Maybe we can talk about some other country or some future where a serious party emerges in this country. Until then, what I said is truth.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    LOL, it’s not misinformation to state the fact that voting third party is basically pissing away your vote.

    Arguing to not vote for third parties because they can never win is indeed misinformation. Governments spend billions in propaganda, what the hell do you think they are advocating for? for people to vote for parties that aren't part of the government?

    There is no real serious third party option.

    I would argue that any party is a more serious option than red or blue, they don't have blood on their hands.

    All it takes for a party to get traction and votes is popularity and popularity can be farmed in a day, if a bunch of famous people with millions of followers would start advocating for a third party you would have a revolution in a week.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago

    I would argue that any party is a more serious option than red or blue

    Not if they don't stand the remotest chance in hell of winning.

    All it takes for a party to get traction and votes is popularity

    Oh, is that it?

    and popularity can be farmed in a day

    Ok, you're just delusional.

    if a bunch of famous people with millions of followers would start advocating for a third party

    Hey, it's like if every single worker in this country agreed to take part in a national strike, then worker's demands would be met the next day. Oh wait, that's a fantasy scenario that will never happen.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Unless the elections are rigged any party has the same chances of winning

    Lol. WTF?

    voting a third party is as much action as voting red and blue is.

    Kiddo. The most popular 3rd party candidate in the last election (Jill Stein) got a whopping half of a single percent of the total votes cast. That means that there was absolutely, positively, categorically no path to victory for her.

    So yeah, voting 3rd party, in a national election, is literally pointless and equivalent to inaction.

    If you want to vote 3rd party in local/state elections, great. You HAVE to do that for a LONG TIME to start getting more than ZERO 3rd party reps in Congress, and making that 3rd party a household name, before it stands the remotest chance in hell of winning a national election, such as the presidency.

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