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Young Indonesian couple publicly caned after kissing on TikTok (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/world@quokk.au
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[–] 10 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Wow Islam is so tolerant amirite guys? Where are all the apologists from that thread the other day?

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

    There are 2 billion muslims in the world. They are not a monolith. You would struggle to find muslims who agree with each other on all fronts if you tried. Jumping from these muslims did something bad to all muslims are intolerant is nuts and I encourage you to reevaluate and maybe speak to actual Muslims sometime.

    Religion in general can be a tool of oppression, this is not unique to Islam. Do not fall for your ruling class' villification of the other.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago*

    From the article, it seems like this isn't popular in the rest of the country either

    Aceh is the only province in Muslim-majority Indonesia that enforces a version of Islamic law. The country’s secular central government granted the province the right to implement religious law in 2006 as part of a peace deal to end a separatist war.

    Amnesty International Indonesia said the public caning in Aceh was a form of human rights violation that was cruel, inhumane and degrading to human dignity, carried out despite the fact Indonesia had ratified a convention mandating the abolition of inhumane punishments.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (2 children)

    It should be noted that you're fighting a strawman. The OP was criticizing the religion islam, not muslims as a group, and certainly not making the claim that "all muslims are intolerant". To clarify, this doesn't mean other religions are particularly "good" either - it is possible for many things to be bad simultaneously.

    To address your strawman however, I will note that the problems with islam run very deep. The fact is that a majority of muslims, globally, hold views that I would consider, amongst other things, to be misogynistic (feel free to update me on that if there is a more recent global study with the same scope).

    If something is the norm in a group rather than a fringe idea, it can hardly be considered extremism either. Given that islam has many of these misogynistic values close to its' core, it isn't particularly shocking either and not too far fetched to attribute a share of the blame to the religion, regressive as it is.

    As such, considering the above, I consider islam to be bad on the whole. Note: this doesn't mean that someone is inherently "bad" due to being muslim, or that "good" muslims don't exist - I am acquainted with a few.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    To say Islam is intolerant is to generally claim that Muslims are intolerant. I don't think you can seperate the claim from its implications.

    I think it is worth noting that Islam was a liberatory movement in the age of its emergence and continued to be so for long after in many cases. Especially for women. It only became oppressive as it became part of the state. This was furthered by European imperialism in West Asia and North Africa. The Islam you see today can be dramatically different from the Islam of 1850.

    Religion is superstructural. It is not the source of misogyny nor is it the source of oppression generally. It can be used to justify these things sure but it is not why they exist. I won't pretend to fully understand the social relations within West Asia and their origin but it is certain that there are material rather than idealist reasons for their current state. Removing the religion would not remove the impetus for misogyny and oppression it would only remove its current justification.

    These people must overcome these cultural struggles on their own terms and in their own time while we work on our own as well. The reason I worry about the original commenters perception of Islam is because such perspectives are utilized by our governments to justify imperialist aggression against Muslim majority countries. This imperialist aggression is wrapped in the language of helping their oppressed groups but never does anything of the sort. Cultures do not grow under imperial boots.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    To say Islam is intolerant is to generally claim that Muslims are intolerant.

    Absolutely not. Organized religions, such as Islam and Christianity (or rather, Catholicism, Shia etc.), are themselves power structures perpetuating values.

    Criticizing a religion is no more a criticism of the individual believers than calling a national government (like the Russian one maybe) evil is equivalent to claiming all who share that nationality are evil.

    I would also strongly dispute your claims regarding the history of islam, but don't have time to take that discussion right now. My statements regarding islam as a religion in the current day I will stand by however.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Criticizing a religion is no more a criticism of the individual believers than calling a national government (like the Russian one maybe) evil is equivalent to claiming all who share that nationality are evil.

    If one is to this then they must make it clear which the original commentor did not. They did not say "the religious hierarchy within islam is oppressive in order to preserve existing structures of power", they just clearly implied Islam is intolerant without any addition of context. I believe my interpretation was reasonable within those bounds.

    I also encourage you to look into how Bedouins treated women before Islam. Or anyone for that matter, it was often unpleasant to be a part of their society and Islam made their lives better.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Eh?

    Do I need to say more than "Russia is evil"?

    I tend to assume people are saying what they are meaning. OP said "Islam is so tolerant" (sarcastically, implying the opposite) not "muslims are so tolerant".

    Language has meaning. In my country, statement no. 1 is constitutionally protected expression (criticism of a religion, whether in speech or print - originally implemented to prevent the church from censuring people) whilst statement no. 2 might get you dinged for "agitating against a demographic".

    I also encourage you to look into how Bedouins treated women before Islam. Or anyone for that matter, it was often unpleasant to be a part of their society and Islam made their lives better.

    As mentioned, discussion for another day.

    Now I gotta sleep tho but interesting chatting :)

    cya

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago*

    Do I need to say more than "Russia is evil"?

    Yes lol, you do need to say more than that.

    Anyway it seems like we just have different standards for how clearly our meanings should be articulated. Especially on topics such as these. This is likely because I come from a country where Islamophobia is so endemic. Statements like the original commenter made are something I often hear said sarcastly from people I know to be bigots. In my experience it has been people like this who supported our brutal invasions and/or sanctions of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Often times they are also the type to be sympathetic to Israel (or at least were at one point). They use their supposed disgust with the bigotry of the foreigner to mask their own bigotry and support for imperialist plunder. So perhaps I overanalyzed that persons statement but perhaps my experiences let me see things you might miss.

    Finally, I wasn't suggesting we discuss the revolution in Bedouin society caused by Islam I just think it is cool and interesting and something you should read about when you get the chance.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago*

    The OP was criticizing the religion islam, not muslims as a group, and certainly not making the claim that “all muslims are intolerant”.

    Trolls sneering 'wow so tolerant!' could not make that distinction with a gun to their head. At best you get mewling and bickering over the absolute "all" as if it's any better to say "most" and clearly mean "including Moe down the street."

    a majority of muslims, globally,
    Given that islam has many of these misogynistic values close to it’s core,

    This is you failing to make that distinction, yourself.

    I am acquainted with a few.

    Right, you can say it because you have a black friend. He's one of the good ones.

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