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What do you guys think of the reddit alternatives? (lemmy.world)
submitted 3 months ago* by to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
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Digg:

It had potential, but after becoming an ai news aggregator now there's none.

Lemmy:

Low engagement / kinda dead. Also, I have heard that the growth is slowing down(somebody pls provide a citation for this).

Besides that, it's pretty much reddit, for better or for worse.

9gag:

I just made a post there, my first impressions are not good. Got insulted and my post got removed. Now, that might have something to do with me not understanding how the website works, but only time will tell. I will spend more time there to see if it's worth anything.

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[โ€“] 4 points 3 months ago (20 children)

You can both produce more efficiently and without excess without stopping advancement.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (17 children)

    You are treating advancement like it is a neutral force of nature, but it is really just driven by the need to keep growing. You say we can be efficient without excess, but that ignores how efficiency actually works in the real world. When we figure out how to use a resource more efficiently, we do not use less of it overall. We just consume more because it becomes cheaper. Making green tech more efficient does not hit the brakes on the machine. It just gives the system a cheaper, greener excuse to expand mining and infrastructure.

    You assume a socialist state will just choose to stop producing once it is efficient enough, but the whole logic of advancement requires endless expansion. If the socialist state keeps up the project of endless industrial growth just with a red flag over the factories, the planet still burns. The relentless drive for more production caused the ecological crisis in the first place. Doing it faster and greener is not the cure. You cannot run an infinite growth engine on a finite planet and expect it to voluntarily stop. The climate does not care if the bulldozer destroying the forest is owned by a billionaire or a workers' collective. Believing that efficiency will magically solve overconsumption without us fundamentally changing our relationship to consumption is just wishful thinking.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago (16 children)

    I think you're confusing the profit motive with development. Accumulation of capital is what drives endless expansion and overconsumption. Socialism is necessary to stop that cycle, as rather than profit, suiting the needs of humanity becomes the goal.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (15 children)

    You say that shifting from profit to human need stops the cycle of endless expansion, but I think you are underestimating how elastic "human needs" actually are. Under an industrial socialist system, if the state decides that everyone needs an electric car, a modern apartment, and global supply chains for fresh produce year-round, the expansion continues. The motive changes, but the physical extraction stays the same.

    To build all that green infrastructure to meet those needs, you still have to mine lithium, cobalt, and rare earth metals on a massive scale. Those mines still destroy ecosystems and pollute water, whether the workers or capitalists own them. Profit does not physically dig the holes in the earth. Machines and labor do that. Changing the reason we dig the hole does not stop the hole from destroying the local environment.

    The core issue is that you are replacing the profit motive with a productivist motive. You are assuming that as long as we are producing for need instead of profit, we can keep expanding production indefinitely. But the planet has hard physical limits. A truly socialist system has to recognize those limits and intentionally restrict what we consume, not just change who is doing the consuming. If your version of socialism just promises more stuff for everyone, you are still running an infinite growth engine on a finite planet.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago (14 children)

    Changing from the profit motive to a planned economy dramatically changes how and why human development is steered. Socialism of course will advance production, but it ends consumerism, and having humans over capital means we can decide to have a more harmonious impact on the environment. Profit makes this pretty much impossible, as capital is a control system for accumulation.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (13 children)

    I agree that removing the profit motive changes how the economy is steered, but you are assuming the new drivers will automatically choose harmony. You say socialism will advance production while ending consumerism, but those two things contradict each other. If you are advancing production, you have to consume the output or use it to expand further. Otherwise you are just creating massive waste.

    The bigger issue is that you keep treating harmony as a decision we can just make once capital is out of the way. Advancing production requires physical extraction. Planning does not magically make lithium mining or cobalt refining clean. A planned economy still has to dig the same holes in the ground and process the same materials to build the green infrastructure you want. You are just doing the destruction on a schedule instead of for a profit margin.

    Historically, planned economies did not decide to be harmonious either. They decided to industrialize rapidly to compete with capitalist countries, and the environment suffered greatly for it. If the primary goal remains advancing the productive forces, the physical impact on the planet remains destructive. Changing who holds the steering wheel does not change the fact that the vehicle is still an industrial machine tearing up the ground beneath it. At some point, you actually have to ease off the gas pedal, not just plan a more efficient route.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    Developing and advancing does not mean continuing consumerism. The overproduction of cheap plastic goods and planned obsolescence are purely problems of capital, not socialism. We can develop more intelligently, without relying on a system that requires production of endless trinkets at the destruction of the environment. Extraction will not end, sure, but it can be done more intelligently, and it can be minimized.

    Historical socialism has faced numerous problems due to lack of development. They didn't simply develop to compete, but because the basis of socialism is in large industry. We cannot freeze history at a communalist level where we are hunter/gatherers, we have to advance to socialism so that we can actually intelligently solve problems leading to climate change and environmental destruction, rather than having capitalism ensure it is destroyed.

    Communist ecology is a wide field, and you'd do well to study it.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (11 children)

    No one is arguing to freeze history and return to being hunter-gatherers. That seems like a real strawman. I am talking about a steady-state economy where we actually live within our physical means, rather than assuming we can just innovate our way out of finite planetary boundaries.

    You keep saying we can extract "intelligently" and "minimize" it, but you have to look at the actual material math of the green transition you keep praising. Building solar panels, wind turbines, and global electric vehicle fleets for billions of people requires an unprecedented scale of mining for lithium, cobalt, copper, and rare earth metals. There is no "intelligent" way to strip mine the deep sea or destroy lithium salt flats that makes it ecologically harmonious. Planning just makes the destruction more organized. The physical limits of the planet do not care how smart our five-year plans are.

    You say large industry is the basis of socialism, but large industry is exactly what caused the massive metabolic rift with nature in the first place. Capitalism absolutely accelerated it, but the industrial metabolism itself requires a massive throughput of the natural world. Communist ecology has a lot of great theory, but if it ignores the hard limits to growth and assumes we can infinitely develop our productive forces on a finite planet, it is repeating the exact same productivist mistakes as capitalism. It is just substituting red flags for green ones while the mines keep digging.

    I'll gladly revisit communist ecology as soon as it stops ignoring the real material limits of our planet. This explains your fears of me being on a 'eco-fascist pipeline' though i guess. I want to conserve the commons specifically to guarantee abundance and avoid the scarcity that breeds fascism. You, on the other hand, want a centralized state to continue forcing industrial extraction and advancement on a finite planet. When your planned development inevitably hits the hard ecological walls you refuse to acknowledge, it won't be the profit motive deciding who gets the last of the resources. It will be your socialist state. And a state forcing through industrial limits for the 'greater good of historical progress' is a lot closer to the architecture of fascism than a community trying to protect its water from a lithium mine.

    I know we've strayed a bit far from the initial talking points(via most of my best points being ignored and retreated from, mind you), but I have to ask, surely you have enough context to no longer be puzzled/confused by the meaning of one characterized as a 'moderately conservative communist'? Did I clarify enough, or only muddy the waters further? If I did clarify enough, what label would you assign yourself in contrast to me and my position? Would it be better (or more productive lol) for me to take on the label of 'degrowth communist'? I feel I understand my position more confidently, but I'm still pretty lost on where your initial confusion stemmed from.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    Communist ecology does not ignore the material limits of reality, that's a strawman. Advancing recycling, renewable materials, renewable energy sources, all of it requires more advanced technology, but can be done in a fashion that does not harm the environment. My point is that degrowth does not work, and actually works against the capabilities of advanced ecology. We need to advance onto socialism as quickly as possible so as to end overconsumption and overproduction, but we should not try to freeze where we are at.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that advancement does not mean endless production, and large industry does not mean overproduction and overconsumption.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (9 children)

    You say advancement doesn't mean endless production, but you haven't explained what physically stops it. You are treating advanced recycling and renewable technology like a magic wand that bypasses the laws of physics. Thermodynamics dictates that recycling is never one hundred percent efficient, and building the infrastructure for a global green energy grid requires a staggering amount of initial extraction. You cannot build solar panels, wind turbines, and batteries out of thin air.

    You also keep using the word freeze, but I am not arguing for freezing society. Degrowth is not about returning to the Stone Age. It is about intentionally shrinking the parts of the economy that are actively destroying the planet, like fast fashion, planned obsolescence, and the military industrial complex.

    You claim large industry does not mean overproduction, but what exactly limits it under socialism? If the state is trying to meet human needs, and industrial advancement constantly creates new needs as fast as it solves old ones, how do you prevent the system from just producing more? You assume removing the profit motive removes the drive for endless consumption, but the culture of advancement itself creates that desire. Without a hard commitment to physical limits, your planned large industry will still overconsume, just more efficiently.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    The reason for overproduction is because the profit motive requires the sale of as many commodities as possible. Socialism essentially means we can scientifically plan production and distribution, meaning we aren't constrained by this any longer. As for the bits you are talking about like fast fashion, planned obsolescence, and the military industrial complex, we aren't at odds here, these are products of capitalism and the profit motive.

    Advancement is not a "culture." It is a historical process. You are confusing the problems of capitalism to be problems of culture, and not material conditions, which leads to errors in judgment. All environmentalism going forward requires socialism as a basis, which will end overconsumption because the base of overconsumption is overproduction for sale of commodities.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (7 children)

    You argue that removing the profit motive removes overproduction, but you are treating "human needs" as a fixed, objective metric that planners can just calculate. Advancing industry inherently creates new needs. A hundred years ago, indoor plumbing was a luxury; now it is a basic need. As technology advances, the material baseline of what humans require to participate in society advances with it. A socialist state aiming to provide for an advancing society will have to extract the resources to meet those constantly expanding needs.

    If your scientific planners realize that meeting those advancing needs will destroy the lithium salt flats or the deep sea, and they choose to restrict production to save the environment, they are intentionally limiting consumption. That is degrowth.

    You say I am confusing capitalism with culture, but you are treating "scientific planning" like magic that can bypass thermodynamics. Planning how much to extract does not change the physical impact of the extraction itself. Whether a capitalist or a socialist planner orders the mining of cobalt, the local ecosystem is destroyed. Removing the profit motive changes who gets the wealth, but it does not change the physical reality that large scale industry consumes the natural world.

    You are correct that the profit motive drives overproduction under capitalism. But once profit is gone, you still have a system that demands the continuous development of productive forces. Without a hard commitment to ecological limits, your planned economy will still consume the planet, just more equitably.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

    The "need motive" is not what you think it is. There is not an imperitive to endlessly expand. I am not treating scientific planning like it can bypass thermodynamics, that is a strawman. Profit doesn't just change distribution, it changes production, because profit needs more sales. This creates new demand that then is fulfilled, this is the basics of why socialist ecology is necessary.

    Again, the "need motive" does not have the same endless feedback loop that the profit motive does.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (5 children)

    You say the need motive does not have an endless feedback loop, but I think you are really ignoring how need scales with technological advancement. When socialism develops new medical treatments and/or better housing those immediately become new basic rights. The standard of living constantly rises which requires constant material input. Advancing society expands the definition of what people need to live a dignified life.

    Even if we accept that the need motive lacks the artificial acceleration of the profit motive, you still have to face the baseline. Providing a modern, dignified standard of living for 8 billion people with housing, healthcare, and green energy already requires an ecological footprint that exceeds the Earth's capacity.

    We do not need an endless feedback loop to hit ecological collapse. The starting line is already unsustainable. Stopping the profit loop just means we crash into the wall at a steady speed instead of accelerating. To actually live within planetary boundaries, we have to intentionally shrink the material baseline of our consumption. That is degrowth. You cannot simply assume that meeting human needs will automatically align with the Earth's carrying capacity, because right now, they do not.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    I'm aware that advancements also elevate living standards. However, your conception of this necessitating destruction of the environment is incorrect, and this is not at all the same as capitalism's incessant drive towards accumulation. Degrowth as a focus is the wrong approach, advanced technology like developed rail systems actually save the environment more than car-centric infrastructure. We have to advance further to protect the environment, and combine that with climate-focuses approaches, not slow our advancement and stick with small-scale production, which is less environmentally efficient.

    Degrowth is a trap. Environmentalist socialism is necessary, and is the actual way to protect and preserve the environment. Socialism will end fast fashion, incessant trinket production, and more that currently only serve to accelerate capital accumulation, while advancing technology that is more environmentally efficient.

    It's really as simple as this.

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  • [โ€“] -1 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    It is not as simple as you make it sound, because you are treating advanced technology like it exists in a vacuum instead of recognizing the physical cost of building it.

    You call degrowth a trap, but ignoring physical limits is the real trap. Degrowth doesn't mean abandoning rail for inefficient small-scale production. It means intentionally shrinking the total material throughput of the economy. We can advance rail while drastically degrowing destructive sectors like aviation, the military, and industrial meat.

    The problem is that building your advanced green infrastructure still requires massive mining for copper, concrete, and rare earth metals. Those mines destroy real ecosystems whether a socialist planner orders them or a capitalist does. Efficiency per person does not change the absolute physical footprint of extracting resources for 8 billion people. If your environmentalist socialism refuses to shrink our total material consumption, it will just plan its way into the same ecological collapse.

    I think if it must be put simply, your communism is just vastly more optimistic than mine.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

    You keep claiming that there are "physical limits," which isn't a magic spell. Of course there are physical limits, I'm not unaware of it. The problem with degrowth is that in an effort to not spend resources on improving efficiency and developing in a green direction, it counterintuitively costs more to the environment to try to keep present level technology and produce less. You inevitably end up in a Malthusian direction, turning to eco-fascism.

    Yes, production of useless waste like fast fashion can and should end. Yes, much of what we produce is wasted and this must be eliminated. This is where I can align with degrowth. However, the idea that we need to work smaller and smaller rather than larger and more efficiently is where the math loses out for Degrowth.

    Here's a handy example. For socialists, replacing cars with solar powered trains dramatically reduces emissions while improving transport and lowering resource cost. Degrowth doesn't take this position, though. Degrowth tries to lower present output without building onto newer. This is the trap. We can all agree on cutting out the bullshit, but the answer isn't to try to strip back what we already do.

    This is why degrowth leads to ecofascism. With present output and methods, we are unsustainable headed to disaster. People do not want to lower their lifestyles significantly, yet for degrowth to work it needs a population collapse. This leads to Malthusian politics and a desire to eliminate large portions of humanity to live current lifestyles in a more sustainable manner.

    The problem is, that doesn't even work. Killing off huge portions of humanity would still lead to collapse at present technology, without advancing it. People will inevitably advance, and grow again, and this time the world will well and truly end for Humanity.

    I do agree that I'm more optimistic, but I also believe I am more realistic.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    I think on the whole, we actually agree on the mechanics of what needs to happen: slash the destructive waste and build the green infrastructure. Functionally, eliminating massive sectors is degrowth. You call it "advancement" because of the new tech. I call it "degrowth" because the total material footprint has to physically shrink to make room for it.

    Going all the way back to your original confusion, I hope I've at least cleared up what I meant by "moderately conservative communist" -> essentially someone whose primary focus is conserving the physical commons against the destructive march of both capital and unchecked productivism. Given that we've mapped out where our versions of communism diverge, do you think lemmy.ml is still a good home base for a degrowth communist like me, or is there another instance where this flavor of socialism fits better?

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago

    I think pretty much all socialists are ecological at the same time these days, so I'm not sure what identifying yourself as a degrowth communist adds, kinda like calling yourself a pro-LGBTQIA+ communist or an anticapitalist communist. Lemmy.ml is more than fine for you, I'd say, many will probably have similar issues with specifically aligning with degrowth as I did though.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    Sorry to necro this a little bit. I'm curious how this view deals with waste heat.

    Right now, with the current waste heat our cumalitive technology usage as it stands today, without factoring in global climate change, wool be enough to boil the oceans in 200 years or so.

    Given that, it seems likely that any progress that is required to not have us suffer an ecological based Apocalypse would necessarily require degrowth, right

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 3 months ago

    Energy can be made more efficiently with less waste being given off as heat, and renewable sources can generate less heat and even have a cooling effect on the Earth in some cases. "Degrowth" as a movement is different from cutting largely unnecessary production, like fast fashion, it implies focusing on small scale production with presently capable methods, even if developing technology and using larger scale production can be more green.

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