chuckleslord comments on 'Rogaine' in a Pill? Oral Minoxidil Aces Major Hair Loss Trial

'Rogaine' in a Pill? Oral Minoxidil Aces Major Hair Loss Trial (gizmodo.com)

submitted 3 months ago by return2ozma@lemmy.world to c/science@lemmy.world

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

In black communities, hair care is community building. By going bald, you lose or limit access to the community created in the barber's chair. White people don't have this, so losing your hair is just about vanity, not a loss or reduction of identity.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

I don't know. I have a great relationship with my barber. I don't think that our relationship is less meaningful just because the color of our skin.

I also do not believe that people in general, no matter the color of their skin, go only to barbers of their same skin color. Not all the world live in 1960s USA. Pretty sure plenty of white folks go to black barbers, and plenty of back folks go to white barbers.

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Pretty sure plenty of white folks go to black barbers, and plenty of back folks go to white barbers.

Yeah, and that shows your level of ignorance here. Cosmetology and barber schools don't teach about black hair types and difficulties. White is default in these places and black hair care is considered a "specialty" skill. A black person can't just walk into any barbershop. Well, they could but it's unlikely anyone knows how to help them.

I have to be done here, but this is definitely a blind spot for you. Maybe look into it?

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[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

"No true Scot" found in the urban centres.

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago

Did I use the "No True Scotsman" fallacy? I'm not seeing it

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

Lots to unpack here.

You still do not explain why white people's relationships with their barbers are less meaningful just because the color of their skin.

Also I don't get why a person with white skin could not go to a barber who has black skin, which would know how to cut white hair because as you said it's the default, and build a great friendship and community there.

Where I live most white people go to PoC barbershops because most barbershops are own by PoC overall.

Black people and white people are allowed to be friends and to go to each others business now.

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[–] SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Sure white people can go to any barber and be sure they have been trained in straight hair but that is not the point. White people with extremely curly or frizzy hair are also poorly served by society.

So people of African descent have a skill gap to contend with, on top of prejudice to negotiate, and hair becomes a political thing where community needs to close ranks.

Why is it a more meaningful relationship than for non-blacks? Tradition on top of comfort and security, and a layer of "insider knowledge."

Getting huffy about it is pretty cringy, though, and I wish you were more open to learning.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

And I'm 100 percent going to concede that's a political thing and a community thing. It's true, it's a logical statement. That for some black people their hair saloon have a particular relevance that's unique to them.

But I still say:

It's not a race thing. As it's not universal along black people all over the world. Black people from many countries, that still suffer a fuck ton of racisms, doesn't have that cultural context. It's not the primarily reason black people feel bad about losing their hair. First, because loosing your hair doesn't mean you stop going to the barber. You are still going to get shaved. Second, because most black people feel bad about loosing their hair for the same vanity reasons as white people. Because they make them look a way they don't want to look like. This discussion started not by saying "black people can feel bad about losing their hair because this community thing"... no... it started by saying "white people cannot feel bad loosing their hair if it's because they look old". While you may have provided some reasons on why a black person could have an additional reason to feel bad for going bald nothing has been said about the thousands of different races and identities that are neither black or white. The original argument was a criticism towards white people, they you trid to shift the discussion towards a excuse on why black people are allowed to feel bad for balding. Let's forget about black people. Tell me about asians, tell me about latin-americans, tell me about romanies. When they said that "white people it's not justified to feel bad" they should have provided arguments on why specifically white people cannot feel bad for it. Instead of providing a (bad) argument on why one of the thousands ethnicities that exist on earth may have an excuse to feel bad about balding.

I do not concede that the community bonding that white people form with their hair saloons is less important that the bonding form by black people. It may not be a political bonding, it may not be a bond that has roots on racisms. But it's still a bond, and humans are hurt when bonds are broken. A bond being political or root on racism is not "more important" than a bond created for other reasons. If they separate you from people you love or a place you belong is going to hurt all the same.

At some point it's just fucking sad that's actually pretty universal and bonding between races, as is it "going bald makes you feel like shit" has been tried to be transformed into "this particular race cannot share this feeling because fuck them apparently".

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[–] SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

Wow OK

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Brother. As a white person, if you need a haircut you can go to any salon. Your hair isn't under constant scrutiny. Your default hairstyle isn't treated as something dirty or wrong. You don't experience othering or ostracization because of your hair.

You, as an individual, can choose to have your hair be a connection to community. That can be a beautiful thing and losing that might be devastating to you, as an individual. A black person is thrust into community because of their hair because of systemic oppression. It's a struggle that brings everyone in that community together. You can't separate one from the other. Every black man who loses his hair loses this integral connection he has to his community.

White people's connection to community through their hair is a choice, black people's connection to community through their hair is a survival tactic. That's why they're fundamentally different. You can choose, they have no choice but to do so.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

Sorry, I simply not buy that.

We are not going to agree on this. So have a great day. It has been nice to read your point of view on the matter, and there are some things that I haven't considered before. Still do not personally agree but that's ok.

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[–] MJKee9@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Assuming you understand others' personal and cultural experiences, especially when you aren't a member of that culture, and especially when you have more than one person saying you don't understand that culture, is a bad move. You don't have to "agree" or "disagree.". Sometimes you can just listen politely.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

Precisely why my argument has not been to invalidate black people's culture. But to criticize when someone tried to invalidated white people's culture, importance of their hair or relationships with their barbers.

You could also apply the listen and not argue here when I say that hair and hair saloons are important for other ethnicities other that Black American.

I can also tell you my personal experiences and culture. In fact it's what I've mostly say. Never said that black people doesn't have great relationships and community bonding in barbershops owned supposedly by other black people. I've been saying that white (and other ethnicities) also have that, and it's as important for them, because, you know, every human is important regardless of their skin color.

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[–] SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

People aren't arguing about white peoples and others not having community in the barbershop, but that there's a layer of risk due to hair type combined with prejudice that puts black hair salons and barbershops at a higher level of necessity. Even in Canada, or maybe especially in Canada, this is obvious.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

What we are definitely not arguing about is about the necessity of barbershops that know how to cut black's people hair. I'm not arguing about it. If a place have population with that type of hair there needs to be barbershops that know how to cut it.

It doesn't relate with white people, specifically white people, not being allowed to feel bad for balding because it makes them look old.

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[–] SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Ah well it looked like you were arguing against the elevated importance of hair salons and barbershops for people of african descent.

I am not sure how you concluded anyone is arguing the last point, I missed that.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

There may be a misunderstanding here then. I may have expressed myself wrong. My point never was to underestimate the importance or cultural background of African American barbershops. Neither to confront the roots of racism that created that necessity. I agree with all that.

My only point is that it doesn't invalidate the importance that hair and hair saloons has for other people (for different reasons each). All in reference to a comment that said something on the line that white people's (and only white people's specifically) pain over looking old because balding is invalid.

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[–] SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Yeah you presented as asserting that racism isn't a valid concern regarding hair issues and that other "races" are just as vulnerable around hair issues. It’s a bad look.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

I'm very sorry if it looked like that. Racism is a valid concern, obviously. I'm just saying that's not the only concern, not even for black people, or people of any race.

And that in the context of hair loss I would bet that racism is not the primary concern that pops when it happens. And that's beautiful, because that's something that ties many people together across races. Feeling bad when we notice our hair falls. And most of us feel bad not because that "hair saloon community thing", I don't know how many black people have that specify grievance about going bald. But what I've have always seen people of all races and colours complain about is the vanity thing, just the simple fact of wanting to have hair up there. Something that makes us all humans.

I specifically complained that while the "attack" was on white people. And only after the attack an argument was presented that only covered something that affected African Americans. I would have never said a thing if the original comment was "Black people fells this a lot because they also may loose the sense of belonging to a traditional African American space that protected them against racism". That's 100% real and valid. But the original comment was way different, wasn't it?

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[–] SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

But the original comment was way different, wasn't it?

Yeaaaaah, I think it was worth a corrective comment, not a long-ass thread with a bunch of misunderstanding in it, where "race" gets repeatedly used like it's scientific and not bullshit, and you really went to bat hard on a side issue of baldness in the bigger political issue, while appearing to argue against a vulnerable population's safe spaces.

People tried to school you because you seem to have a watered down view of racism. I suspect you're not North American maybe, where things are pretty tense on the topic.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago*

Yep. I'm from southern europe.

And for what it's worth the lecture was indeed interesting. And I learned about the relationships of African American hair saloons, black culture and racism. I had some sense of it based on classic movies, but this roots the knowledge about the topic further down.

And it's true that I genuinely believed that that kind of "segregation" (is that right?) of black people going to black saloons and white people going to white saloons was a thing of the sixties. And that nowadays it wasn't like that. But I stand corrected on that if you said that it's still an issue. Here there has been always a lot of saloons with PoC owners or workers as it is a typical migrant job, so I've never seen that reality, or if it does happen I'm not conscious of it.

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

Cool. Have fun with your intentional ignorance. Your whiteness will undoubtedly shield you from any contradictory evidence if you don't actively fight against it. Cheers, mate!

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

Are you being racist against me?

I think you are both assuming my race as white and them being pejorative against white people.

That last message was not cool.

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

Brother. Comrade. Friend. I assumed you're white because you think that racism is a thing in the past. That it's an icky, immoral thing for history textbooks and not something that anyone deals with today. I assume you're white because you defend white people in a scenario where they're privileged and that privilege shields them from the reality that others face. I assume you're white because when I give an example of what this experience is like for a non-white community member, you immediately center whiteness in your rebuke. You assume that speaking of the white experience as what it is is somehow racism.

Whiteness isn't some failing of race, it's a systemic knowledge gap where white people assume themselves the default race and they think they can easily project their experiences onto other communities. They don't know the struggles of other communities because they aren't forced to confront how racism impacts their experience. White privilege isn't something that gives them a leg up, it just means they don't have to grapple with racism in their day-to-day lives.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago* (2 children)

I do not think racism is a think of the past. I do not believe I've ever said that. I don't even identify as white. My DNA has more in common with North Africa than with the Anglo-Saxon groups that created the concept of "being white", so you should check your prejudices.

Racism is really prevalent today against PoC. I've anyone understood anything else from my messages I apologise for not delivering my wording right.

That being said. "White" people is privileged in many areas. Going bald and suffering from balding is not one of them. And invalidating that feeling, saying that a white person going bald should not complain or suffer about it JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE. Rubs me the wrong way. Millions of white people suffer a lot because they are going bald, trying to invalidate that feeling just because they are white is just wrong.

It's incredibly funny you say I believe "white is the default race" when you directly attacked white people, and your only defence for that offence was that was hair saloons are important for black people. Completely ignoring the thousands of different ethnicities that are neither black neither white. What about a balding Asian? can they complain if they go bald? A balding latin american? Which degree of anglo-saxon DNA has a person have to have in their blood to be able to complain about going bald?

The root of this is that a person say that "white people cannot complain about going bald because they are white" and has yet not retracted that incredibly racist statement.

You don't know what's going on in the life of that balding white person, and you CANNOT DEDUCE IT FROM THEIR RACE. You don't know if they are for instance a trans woman and suffering an incredible gender disforia because the balding. You don't know what importance have their hair in their lives. And trying to invalidate those feelings based only on their skin color is a bad thing to do.

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

I don't even identify as white. My DNA has more in common with North Africa than with the Anglo-Saxon groups that created the concept of "being white", so you should check your prejudices

Sorry, can't let this go. This is the whitest fucking shit I've ever heard. Bro, non-white people don't fucking choose how to identify. They are identified and have to deal with how they're identified. The fact that you think you can choose to not identify with whiteness screams of the fact that you're absolutely steeped in it.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago*

It's pretty insensitive and fucking racist not respecting how anyone choose to identify. Fucking disgusting. I'm done here. Goodbye for good. You are NO ONE to tell me with which ethic label should I identify.

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Especially if you're white and you just don't want to go bald cause "then you'll be old".

My direct quote, it's interesting that that doesn't say what you said it does. I'm not saying this isn't a struggle for white people, silly. I'm saying that they have less to grapple with losing. Even if they have the same level of connection to community through their hair, losing that won't other them from an intrinsic part of their identity. That is a lesser loss, which was my point and the reason why I emphasized that.

Completely ignoring the thousands of different ethnicities

I'm not ignoring shit, dude. You asked what being white had to do with it, I gave a counter-example of someone who isn't white losing something deeper than a white person could face in the same situation. I don't need to explain that hair is a big part of many identities to demonstrate my point or cover every possible group that it could possibly apply to, just that it isn't the same for white people.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

And that's where I fundamentally disagree. And what I do think we could not agree.

You said that black people (and supposedly all other ethnicities but white for some "absolutely-non-racist" reason), have something defined by their race that makes them lose something when they lose their hair that white people doesn't have.

You said that black people lose a sense of community when they go bald because hair saloons are more important to them because of their race. I do not agree with this, as I know that hair saloons have not that "black community" meaning to all black people, and that many white people have that "community" feeling for their hair saloons. Bonding with other human beings in a hair saloon is not a race specific condition. And pointing out that while you outed white people for some "not-racist" reason you where unable to find more examples of not white people that lose something fundamentally related to their race that white people do not lose when they go bald.

Going even further I would say that you are not even doing a favour to black people here. As I'm pretty sure that plenty of balding black people are suffering not because they "loose their saloon community", they suffer because they like their hair, they like how they look with hair, they believe that hair makes them look younger and more attractive, and they don't stop being black for feeling this way or because they don't have a "black saloon community". As these feelings are not race-lock. A black person, an asian person, a white person, a latin-american person... feeling like shit for aesthetic reasons because you are loosing your hair it's one pretty common suffering among most races and cultures I know.

You also while accusing me to "white defaultism" are doing a very strong USA defaultism. Ignoring that the majority of black people of the word does indeed not live in the USA, and does not have those US related experiences. You can be in a country with 99,9% black people, with not weird shenanigans about racism and barbershops. And they still most of the time don't like when they go bald, why? because it makes them look old, same as an "privileged" white dude.

On an even more profound note about racism. Trying to equate "community" things to "race" things... not good in my opinion. On this example, the moment you say that something fundamental about being black is a "community formed in the hair saloon" how do you think that makes feel black people who doesn't have such "saloon community"? Black people that go to a white barber, that do not bond in the barber for whatever reason, or maybe they cut their own hair because they are broke af? Are they not black? Are they less valid? There are common black experiences, of course, most of them related to a blatant racism against them. I just don't think that "hair saloons" and thing related with hair are one of those experiences.

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