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Punish the Democrats, she says (thelemmy.club)
submitted 6 months ago by to c/leopardsatemyface@lemmy.world
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[+] -6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (25 children)

Nobody argues about that. People are pointing out the choices US-American voters have

  • genocide and police violence
  • the above, but also probable descent into fascism, forcing women to give birth, sharp increase in violence against non-white people, trans people, etc.
  • a revolution no third option, the ground work hasn't been laid

So arguing against voting for the Democrat party in 2016, 2020, and 2024 did nothing but help fascism.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    Nobody does that.

    People are pointing out the choices US-American voters have

    • genocide and police violence
    • the above, but also

    That sounds a lot like, uh, doing that.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Nobody is doing that:

    arguing over who ...

    The Dems are the antifascist choice. Your system is fucked, do a revolution or vote Dems, then you won't get fascists who do all the things you hate the Dems doing plus more horrible things.

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  • [+] 1 point 6 months ago* (3 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Are you voting for or getting paid by Trump, Orban, Erdogan or some other autocrat directly or are you doing their bidding just because?

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (18 children)

    I think if you put the responsibility on the voters and not the coalition of politicians that claim to represent them, after a while that starts to seem less like advocacy and more like victim blaming.

    As a trans person, the past decade has progressively gotten more terrifying. For me, a politician that is actively trying to harm me is not going to be meaningfully distinct from a politician that is not trying to shield me from the repressive harm that is already built into the system.

    Furthermore, I do not think shaming people for taking a stance on genocide is going to win anyone over aside from people who support genocide. The Democrats may have handled things differently but that doesn't mean it'd be better for the Palestinians or the Middle East.

    When a party won't stand up for marginalized people and victims of genocide how can they be trusted to defend anyone when in power? At a certain point you have to recognize the problem, even if you still vote for them. Voter shaming people who reject the harm won't fix it.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (16 children)

    I'm German. At some point, the Nazi party changed the law to be able to do what they want. They were voted into a position where they were able to do that.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    They were voted into a position where they were able to do that.

    Paul von Hindenburg who got elected in 1932 after winning support from the social democrats as a "lesser evil." Eight months later, Hindenburg appointed Hitler chancellor. A month after that, Hitler issued the Reichstag Fire Decree which suspended civil rights and allowed for detention without trial, which he turned on his political opponents.

    And the lesson you want me to take from that is "voting for the lesser evil is effective at stopping fascism?"

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (8 children)

    Absolute revisionism, please educate yourself.

    Germany (then and now) has a coalition system, so you don't need to vote for the lesser evil of two, more than one party can become a coalition.

    There's still tactical voting of course, but Hitler became chancellor because enough people voted for Hitler that a coalition with the Nazi party or new elections were the only choices.

    Yes, they could have gone for the latter, yes, conservatives are always happier to jump in bed with Nazis rather than leftists, so people might have tactically voted for Hindenburg, but my point stands: Hitler could have been voted out.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (3 children)

    Doesn't really sound like "absolute revisionism" to me. Was there a single thing I said that was factually inaccurate, or are you just throwing the term around meaninglessly?

    The only point I see is about Germany having a coalition system, but I was referring to a presidential election, not a parliamentary one.

    Since the Nazis did not have a majority, theoretically, a coalition could have been formed that did not include them. But, as you said, conservatives were more willing to work with Nazis than leftists. Which says to me, and this might be "absolute revisionism" again, that if you're trying to stop fascists electorally, you should at least make sure that the person you're electing isn't just going to promote and work with the exact people you're trying to stop.

    I might mention here that the Democrats campaigned alongside Dick Cheney while refusing to allow even purely symbolic things like allowing a Palestinian speaker at their convention.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Oh so you were intentionally using partial truths to misleadingly imply that votes couldn't have kept Hitler out of office? Which was the thing I said and the thing you quoted before arguing against it … something else apparently.

    if you're trying to stop fascists electorally, you should at least make sure that the person you're electing isn't just going to promote and work with the exact people you're trying to stop.

    Agreed, maybe you should have led with that instead.

    The Democrats are complicit in many inexcusable things that both parties will continue to do until something changes radically. They are however very much not complicit in trying to get rid of voting and other fascist shit Trump has been pushing relentlessly.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    Agreed, maybe you should have led with that instead.

    I believe what I said was that voting for a lesser evil was not a historically effective way of keeping Hitler out of power. Because the lesser evil won and things still played out the way they did. I didn't say anything about voting in general.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Absolute revisionism, please educate yourself.

    There's no shame in being ignorant, it's the mix of ignorance and extreme arrogance that you're right that make people like you so supremely loathsome

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Lmao. So you really just don't know how a coalition based democratic system works?

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    Are you trying to use that as a dunk because when you actually live under oppression from fascists you REALLY need your opposition party to be effective. Harris winning in 2024 was never going to solve a problem that she was part of, it was only going to delay the inevitable and I can promise you that all of the anti-trans legislation and the pro-genocide action still would have actually happened. Or are you as unwilling to listen to a person that belongs to a scapegoated community as your ancestors were?

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Trump stacked the courts in 2016-2020 already, so that would have been the time to prevent that by voting Dems.

    Now anti-trans sentiment is part of an executive order too, which could have been prevented by voting Dems.

    How the fuck is “voting against fascism” not on your list of priorities?

    And don't patronize me, I'm listening to my trans friends already thanks.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    "Trump couldn't have stacked the courts if Democrats won in 2020"

    There really is no outside reality for BlueMAGA is there?

    voting against fascism

    Dems are fascist, dumbass

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    BlueMAGA

    I'm a German anarchist

    Dems are fascist, dumbass

    Takes one to know one. Or you're disingenuous. Only the finest vintage dumbassery or a bad faith actor can honestly not see a difference in the trajectory voting out Trump in 2016 would have resulted in.

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  • [+] -1 points 6 months ago (1 child)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    I'm just really feed up by your insanity of trying to erase boundaries between a party that wants to abolish elections and one that doesn't.

    You don't actually care about Palestine if you promote the USA becoming a dictatorship and glassing whatever other fucking country its god-king-toddler feels has slighted him last.

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  • [–] -2 points 6 months ago

    While I personally think that voting democrat out of fear of the alternative is far far more harmful in the long run, I had an issue with

    I think if you put the responsibility on the voters and not the coalition of politicians that claim to represent them, after a while that starts to seem less like advocacy and more like victim blaming.

    Calling it victim blaming feels unfair. It acts like voters are completely innocent and are absolutely opposed to their representative's actions. Even though some of their actions are unpopular - US voters support their politicians, police, army, etc... Look at how they react whenever anything unfortunate happens to any of them.

    If you actively support and defend a system you're kind of responsible for it's actions even if it ignored you when you politely asked it to do something else. E.g. Despite being unjustly sentenced to death Socrates still drank Hemlock because having supported the system his entire life he had that responsibility / ethical obligation.

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