brynden_rivers_esq comments on Dilemma

[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago (12 children)

That’s your point, my point is the democrats and republicans are both fascists and it doesn’t matter that much which you choose. Voting for the “less bad” fascist to kill the older kid isn’t working “effectively” against the fascists.

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[–] CannonFodder@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (11 children)

They are not the same. I totally understand that the Dems are evil. But it's so silly to say they're as bad as the repubs under trump, or any of the current maga crowd. So voting for the lesser evil gets you lesser evil. Otherwise you get more evil. And that's worse. I don't see how it can be any simpler. Not voting won't change the dems - they just move further right to try to get that vote since the left base evaporated. Work in the primaries to get more progressive candidates on the ballot. Start grass roots actions. Whatever. But not voting for the lesser evil while you do that is crazy. Heck, we may not even get another free election in the U.S. and this could have all been avoided if there were just a few more left leaning voters who got up off their asses and voted logically.

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[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (10 children)

No, they’re not as bad, by about the same amount as Ralph is not as bad as Dirk. It doesn’t matter which you choose, they’re gonna kill a kid. It doesn’t matter whether you vote for democrats or not, tens of thousands of Palestinians will be slaughtered using our tax dollars.

I don’t know how else to put it. All the bad things that are worse under republicans are dwarfed by Palestine. Ice has killed…what, a handful of protestors and a few dozen kidnappees? It’s awful of course, but a rounding error on Palestine.

Maybe that extra rounding error of evil could have been avoided if leftists had been willing to acquiesce to the rest of it…maybe. But it definitely would have been avoided if the democrats had changed, and so would so much else.

You seem to be able to accept unquestioningly that the democrats won’t stop arming a genocide (I don’t, they need to change or else the US is fucked, even if they win. Best we can hope for then is a rapid collapse). I think you should also accept that lots of people will not vote to arm a genocide.

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[–] CannonFodder@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (9 children)

I think the Dems would have pushed back against Israel. Not anywhere near as much as we may want, but way more than trump/republicans. We can't know now what they would have done, but it wouldn't have been as bad as Trump's openly encouraging genocide. And trump will do his best to stop fair elections in the U.S. - he will likely kill democracy. That means no improvement can come even if we manage to get enough progressives in a position to get seats. The downfall of the U.S. will take decades even under trump and his ilk before the pitchforks remove them. In that time, he will allow the complete destruction of Gaza and other places in the ME. That's millions of people dead and impoverished because people like you couldn't see the difference. Wake up!

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[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago (8 children)

Why do you think the Democrats would have pushed back? I don’t believe there’s any factual basis for that. I don’t believe they’ve even whispered a word about slowing military aid. Biden did way more to openly encourage genocide than trump has so…I don’t really understand what you mean.

Amen man, I think the democrats should do everything they can to fight like hell and beat the fascists. Including not arming a genocide (which of course, they should do for more reasons than just winning the US elections).

I absolutely cannot comprehend how them not doing that is acceptable to you, but me not voting for them is not acceptable to you lol…like they’re clearly the moral agent here. All I can do is whine about it, lodge my non-vote and get back to my life. This is their fuckin job. They have unimaginable resources to figure this out, but sure I guess fuck me for not taking my one in two hundred million part in the decision of which party of genocidal maniacs is in charge; sweet or bitter.

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[–] CannonFodder@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (7 children)

Look at something like this it's talking about how Biden didn't do enough. His call to Netanyahu which cause Isreal to open the borders to humanitarian aide wasn't done early enough. Now compare that to this. Of course one can cherry pick quotes. You can find Biden saying Israel has a right to defend itself, which is true but doesn't give them the right to kill Palestine civilians wantonly. You can find trump saying all sorts of random shit; but he goes way further against the people of Gaza and people in shithole countries (his words). Yes Biden financed Isreal, and this was framed as defense. The tides were turning by the end of '24. It was only once Biden was lame duck that Isreal went full postal. And that's arguably because Biden was holding them in check.

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[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago (6 children)

Again, I don’t care as much about what’s said as I do about who funds it. Maybe you’re right, and there actually is a significant difference in how may people get killed. But obviously I don’t think so, at least enough to not vote for Kamala and to have a days long conversation defending that choice.

You don’t hold someone in check by giving them $18 billion worth of guns.

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[–] CannonFodder@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (5 children)

It matters to me because I care about those millions of people who will die because people like you don't seem to understand. You seem like a person with the ability to rationalize facts. But you helped create a worse outcome for what you say you care about. And there are more elections coming up. If they're even slightly free and fair, we need to vote out the republicans with a massive wave to overcome their cheating. It could be the last chance for generations. It won't just be the people of Gaza, or Iran - but Trump and his maga people will allow China to attack Taiwan, Russia to defeat Ukraine and beyond. These will be millions of lives lost because of insane trump policy. And life in the U.S. for most people will become much worse with the terrible and evil management by trump and his followers. These are not round off error issues, they really matter. I understand you are very frustrated with the tragedy in Gaza - but burying your head in the sand and just not voting effectively only makes the situation worse. It's as bad as people not caring politically about what's going on in the Gaza because it doesn't effect them personally. We have to be smart and not let our emotions override logic.

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[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago (4 children)

Boy, the democrats really should get serious then.

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[–] CannonFodder@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (3 children)

Yes they should. But it's not as simple as that. If they swing against Israel in their platform, how many votes will they lose from Israeli supporters? how many will they lose because Israeli money will campaign hard against them? And there's some psycho Israeli supporters in the upper echelons of the Democratic Party - if the party kicks them out, how much damage will it do? It's naive to say they should just do what's right, because if that means they lose votes and lose the election, then they can't do any good pushing back on Israel. Above all, most of the politicians just want power and they have access to a lot of polling data - the reason most of them support Isreal is not for some higher Jewish calling, but because the data tells them they will get more votes that way. Hopefully that changes this cycle and they come up with some sort of better balance - but they probably can't go completely against Israel - look for balanced statements, including statements about restraint and holding Israel accountable. These are like dog whistles for the left - indicating they plan to push back against Israel without burning their bridges. Of course this whole Iran fiasco complicates things more as the U.S. is now even more directly complicit in unnecessary carnage in the ME. So the Dems have to figure out a way to walk that back without seeming weak (Americans don't vote for weak).

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[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

I mean it sounds like you think they're in an impossible place...if they arm a genocide, they'll lose because us crazy leftists won't vote for them. But if they don't arm a genocide they'll lose because those crazy zionists won't vote for them. I think you're wrong about that, that they would win if they kicked the zionists out, but that's speculation on my part. They could make the election a referendum on genocide and I really think that would be a winning position. They might actually have to pick between decent people and zionists. I like to think there are more of us than them, but hey, maybe I'm just an optimist.

But say you're right, and they really are stuck between impossible choices...if each choice is impossible, how in the hell can it be so bad for me to make one of those choices?

I also absolutely don't trust "dog whistles for the left," Obama wasn't sending a dog whistle when he said "I'll close guantanamo bay" or "I'll create a public option for healthcare." Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me. I was so STOKED for Obama; he talked progressive but practical. I didn't like everything he said but if he had followed through on the big progressive promises, the world would be a different place (and the democrats would be a different party). If they don't burn the bridges, they're not serious.

I hope you're right man. I hope they win, I hope they change, I hope things get better. But I aint holding my breath. I expect when they win they'll be pleased to keep most of the fascist powers trump has given precedent for. I expect they'll roll a few things back and put a more polite face on it and get back to rounding up immigrants and funding the genocide of Palestinians. And frankly, that's not good enough; I'd rather not even give my worthless token support to that.

Like I said, I'm not looking for perfection, I'm looking for the absolute minimum. 1% towards decency. If they did the only thing they could do in respect of Palestine that is not absolutely monstrous (i.e. stop military aid to israel), I'd be out working my ass off to get them elected, despite all my many other deep problems with them. And if they announced it and alienated their zionist donors I'd know they were serious about it. None of this "well we have some concerns" while continuing to ship them more guns than they can reasonably find people to shoot.

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[–] CannonFodder@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

I agree on most of what you say. The critical part though is that you 'hope they win' but you won't help that happen. With too may people like you, we get Republican hard core fascist dictatorship with much more death and destruction in the ME. And that pisses me off. We're on the same side, but you're voting against us, and so we will likely lose and so many people will suffer because of it.
You seem to think your vote for the Dems would mean you agree with everything the Dems would do. It's not like that. Either the Dems or the repubs will win. You choose which to make more likely.

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[–] brynden_rivers_esq@lemmy.ca 1 point 6 months ago

I don't think voting for the democrats means I agree with them, I think it means the bad parts are a trade-off I'm willing to make for the good parts. And right now it's not.

My non-vote can also make it a shade less likely the democrats will win without changing. If that makes it a shade more likely they'll change, great, because my vote for them wouldn't make it a shade more likely they'd win (again, living in a state where my vote doesn't count). What my vote does is rob them of an infinitesimal piece of legitimacy, and voting for them would grant them that infinitesimal piece of legitimacy. If you want to make a difference, it's not me you should be talking to, it's only folks in swing states you should be worried about. If my vote counted I might find your points more compelling. And before you say "well that's very nuanced and you shouldn't be telling people not to vote for democrats" I'm not saying that; it's you people calling us out! Saying we're bad people for not acquiescing to this trade off of "if you say yes to arming a genocide, maybe we can have a little less fascism at home."

As it is, I hope the democrats win, but importantly if they win without changing, I hope they win with the lowest turnout in history. I hope it's a near thing. I hope they're scared they'll lose again next time if they keep up this bullshit of chasing the republicans into more and more extreme right wing politics (hell, while we're hoping, I hope they start nationalizing the necessities of life and guillotining billionaires starting with the pedophiles).

Or else I hope grassroots organizing outside the party is integral to their success, and the democrats become beholden to organizations that represent the people. That'd be neat. Anyway, voting for the democrats works against those goals. The democrats winning in a landslide with a clear mandate to get back to "business as usual," where business as usual is rounding up immigrants and murdering Palestinians is still very bad.

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