▲ 1583 ▼ Bandcamp bans purely AI-generated music from its platform (arstechnica.com) submitted 9 months ago by kinther@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world 130 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] nil@piefed.ca 10 points 9 months ago (27 children) That's nice. But I wonder how they detect them. permalink fedilink source hideshow 27 child comments replies: [–] CriticalMiss@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago (23 children) There are usually some tells. For AI generated music (AIGM for short) the cover “art” is also AI generated. The vocals/style are different between tracks. Another method that I think was recently made obsolete was that if you opened the track in audacity it looked weird compared to regular music when you looked at the spectrograms because AIGM added some weird unnecessary noise to the music. AIGM “artists” usually don’t have any social media presence, they don’t really exist outside of the internet. No shows/interviews etc. Is it a lot of effort to find out whether something is AIGM? Maybe. Is it worth it? Yes, I don’t want to give money to people who desecrate the art or music. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 23 child comments replies: [+] Tja@programming.dev -12 points 9 months ago (22 children) So you're saying a milli vanilli would be basically impossible to detect. Besides, who cares? Isn't the purpose to enjoy the music? Whether some uses a capella, instruments, electric instruments, autotune, vocaloid or AI... if you like the music, listen to the music. It's ultimately created by a human using tools. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago* (7 children) not the same thing. AIGM is by definition not created by a human. if i tell you to create a song about a recent breakup i got through, gave you some notes about rhythm and maybe what kind of feel i would like it to have, and then you went ahead and composed the whole song, played all the instruments, provided the vocals, did the mixing and editing and gave me the result, do you think it's fair to say i made the song? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (6 children) Same as vocaloid. Or autotune. How far do we go? Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mriormro@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. I care. Clearly so do the people in support of this decision on here as well as bandcamp themselves. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 9 months ago I hope you are familiar with survivorship bias. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pyre@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (3 children) how is it like auto tune? auto tune corrects your singing, it doesn't sing for you. also, humans care? that's kind of the entire point of art? we care where art comes from. find the best painter in the world, have them make mona lisa's exact copy, and see if it sells for even remotely similar price as Mona Lisa's estimated value which is probably around a billion dollars. anyone can "enjoy" an exact copy, no? no. we care about art because art tells stories. human stories. computers don't have stories to tell. they can imitate, but the best it can ever be will be as valuable as an imitation: not much. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago (2 children) What does monetary worth have to do with anything? A photo of the Mona Lisa is an exact replica, you could even make it bigger to appreciate the details better. If what you like is the picture, you can have it. If what you want is speculation and tax write offs, then you need the scarcity. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent [+] kadaverin0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (2 children) I disagree on all counts. It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. Gatekeeping and true Scotsman arguments are really grasping. I don't know what "social value" is created. A nurse or a fireman create social value. You won't see them worrying about AI. If AI could put out fires they would definitely be interested. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It had to be trained on music created by human artists. Those artists were not compensated. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. I would reject if I knew it was AI. I can't always tell, though. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. The owners of Bandcamp get to set the rules, because they own it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago You can't always tell, I can't always tell, bandcamp can't always tell. And it's only going to get harder. permalink fedilink source parent [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 4 points 9 months ago (5 children) If AIGM was like VSTs or vocaloids that'd be one thing. But it's more like imitation of sounds, synthesizing song chunks instead of instruments and voices themselves. The best way to think of it is something creating an audio file solely by using the Photoshop clone stamp tool across millions of source files. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago (4 children) That's not how transformer neural networks work... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 9 months ago (3 children) Sure, but we're talking generative here, as is the article, and to pretend it's referring to a tool that's been standard in libraries and even VSTs for over a decade is either misunderstanding the article or being disingenuous on purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) No, I get it. It's generative. GPT: Generative Pretrained Transformer. Music generators add a diffusion layer, but it's fundamentally new music being generated, not copies of existing songs. My point is that it's just another tool, that automates it even more. It's not the same, it's the next step. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ClamDrinker@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) I think you might misunderstood what Bandcamp is aiming for here. They're explicitly trying to still allow it when humans are using it (responsibly) as tools. This is essentially a ban on AI where no human is involved (or not involved enough), where the music produced is focused on quantity over quality (slop). That's a fine and nuanced distinction for a music distribution platform in my opinion. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Ok, if this is just a spam prevention I think it's fine. Obviously I didn't read the article (as tradition mandates). permalink fedilink source parent [–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 9 months ago (1 child) You suck permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago Well, maybe. permalink fedilink source parent [–] UltraBlack@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago (1 child) Benn Jordan made an AI model to detect generated music but I thought he wanted to build his own platform...? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Using AI to detect AI? Someone's head is going to explode. permalink fedilink source parent [–] bluesheep@sh.itjust.works 3 points 9 months ago* Exactly my thoughts. Tho I think that purely AI generated music would be somewhat easy to detect? As in compared to original chord progressions with AI lyrics or vice versa permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CriticalMiss@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago (23 children) There are usually some tells. For AI generated music (AIGM for short) the cover “art” is also AI generated. The vocals/style are different between tracks. Another method that I think was recently made obsolete was that if you opened the track in audacity it looked weird compared to regular music when you looked at the spectrograms because AIGM added some weird unnecessary noise to the music. AIGM “artists” usually don’t have any social media presence, they don’t really exist outside of the internet. No shows/interviews etc. Is it a lot of effort to find out whether something is AIGM? Maybe. Is it worth it? Yes, I don’t want to give money to people who desecrate the art or music. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 23 child comments replies: [+] Tja@programming.dev -12 points 9 months ago (22 children) So you're saying a milli vanilli would be basically impossible to detect. Besides, who cares? Isn't the purpose to enjoy the music? Whether some uses a capella, instruments, electric instruments, autotune, vocaloid or AI... if you like the music, listen to the music. It's ultimately created by a human using tools. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago* (7 children) not the same thing. AIGM is by definition not created by a human. if i tell you to create a song about a recent breakup i got through, gave you some notes about rhythm and maybe what kind of feel i would like it to have, and then you went ahead and composed the whole song, played all the instruments, provided the vocals, did the mixing and editing and gave me the result, do you think it's fair to say i made the song? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (6 children) Same as vocaloid. Or autotune. How far do we go? Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mriormro@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. I care. Clearly so do the people in support of this decision on here as well as bandcamp themselves. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 9 months ago I hope you are familiar with survivorship bias. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pyre@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (3 children) how is it like auto tune? auto tune corrects your singing, it doesn't sing for you. also, humans care? that's kind of the entire point of art? we care where art comes from. find the best painter in the world, have them make mona lisa's exact copy, and see if it sells for even remotely similar price as Mona Lisa's estimated value which is probably around a billion dollars. anyone can "enjoy" an exact copy, no? no. we care about art because art tells stories. human stories. computers don't have stories to tell. they can imitate, but the best it can ever be will be as valuable as an imitation: not much. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago (2 children) What does monetary worth have to do with anything? A photo of the Mona Lisa is an exact replica, you could even make it bigger to appreciate the details better. If what you like is the picture, you can have it. If what you want is speculation and tax write offs, then you need the scarcity. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent [+] kadaverin0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (2 children) I disagree on all counts. It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. Gatekeeping and true Scotsman arguments are really grasping. I don't know what "social value" is created. A nurse or a fireman create social value. You won't see them worrying about AI. If AI could put out fires they would definitely be interested. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It had to be trained on music created by human artists. Those artists were not compensated. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. I would reject if I knew it was AI. I can't always tell, though. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. The owners of Bandcamp get to set the rules, because they own it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago You can't always tell, I can't always tell, bandcamp can't always tell. And it's only going to get harder. permalink fedilink source parent [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 4 points 9 months ago (5 children) If AIGM was like VSTs or vocaloids that'd be one thing. But it's more like imitation of sounds, synthesizing song chunks instead of instruments and voices themselves. The best way to think of it is something creating an audio file solely by using the Photoshop clone stamp tool across millions of source files. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago (4 children) That's not how transformer neural networks work... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 9 months ago (3 children) Sure, but we're talking generative here, as is the article, and to pretend it's referring to a tool that's been standard in libraries and even VSTs for over a decade is either misunderstanding the article or being disingenuous on purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) No, I get it. It's generative. GPT: Generative Pretrained Transformer. Music generators add a diffusion layer, but it's fundamentally new music being generated, not copies of existing songs. My point is that it's just another tool, that automates it even more. It's not the same, it's the next step. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ClamDrinker@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) I think you might misunderstood what Bandcamp is aiming for here. They're explicitly trying to still allow it when humans are using it (responsibly) as tools. This is essentially a ban on AI where no human is involved (or not involved enough), where the music produced is focused on quantity over quality (slop). That's a fine and nuanced distinction for a music distribution platform in my opinion. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Ok, if this is just a spam prevention I think it's fine. Obviously I didn't read the article (as tradition mandates). permalink fedilink source parent [–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 9 months ago (1 child) You suck permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago Well, maybe. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Tja@programming.dev -12 points 9 months ago (22 children) So you're saying a milli vanilli would be basically impossible to detect. Besides, who cares? Isn't the purpose to enjoy the music? Whether some uses a capella, instruments, electric instruments, autotune, vocaloid or AI... if you like the music, listen to the music. It's ultimately created by a human using tools. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago* (7 children) not the same thing. AIGM is by definition not created by a human. if i tell you to create a song about a recent breakup i got through, gave you some notes about rhythm and maybe what kind of feel i would like it to have, and then you went ahead and composed the whole song, played all the instruments, provided the vocals, did the mixing and editing and gave me the result, do you think it's fair to say i made the song? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (6 children) Same as vocaloid. Or autotune. How far do we go? Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mriormro@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. I care. Clearly so do the people in support of this decision on here as well as bandcamp themselves. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 9 months ago I hope you are familiar with survivorship bias. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pyre@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (3 children) how is it like auto tune? auto tune corrects your singing, it doesn't sing for you. also, humans care? that's kind of the entire point of art? we care where art comes from. find the best painter in the world, have them make mona lisa's exact copy, and see if it sells for even remotely similar price as Mona Lisa's estimated value which is probably around a billion dollars. anyone can "enjoy" an exact copy, no? no. we care about art because art tells stories. human stories. computers don't have stories to tell. they can imitate, but the best it can ever be will be as valuable as an imitation: not much. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago (2 children) What does monetary worth have to do with anything? A photo of the Mona Lisa is an exact replica, you could even make it bigger to appreciate the details better. If what you like is the picture, you can have it. If what you want is speculation and tax write offs, then you need the scarcity. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent [+] kadaverin0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (2 children) I disagree on all counts. It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. Gatekeeping and true Scotsman arguments are really grasping. I don't know what "social value" is created. A nurse or a fireman create social value. You won't see them worrying about AI. If AI could put out fires they would definitely be interested. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It had to be trained on music created by human artists. Those artists were not compensated. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. I would reject if I knew it was AI. I can't always tell, though. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. The owners of Bandcamp get to set the rules, because they own it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago You can't always tell, I can't always tell, bandcamp can't always tell. And it's only going to get harder. permalink fedilink source parent [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 4 points 9 months ago (5 children) If AIGM was like VSTs or vocaloids that'd be one thing. But it's more like imitation of sounds, synthesizing song chunks instead of instruments and voices themselves. The best way to think of it is something creating an audio file solely by using the Photoshop clone stamp tool across millions of source files. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago (4 children) That's not how transformer neural networks work... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 9 months ago (3 children) Sure, but we're talking generative here, as is the article, and to pretend it's referring to a tool that's been standard in libraries and even VSTs for over a decade is either misunderstanding the article or being disingenuous on purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) No, I get it. It's generative. GPT: Generative Pretrained Transformer. Music generators add a diffusion layer, but it's fundamentally new music being generated, not copies of existing songs. My point is that it's just another tool, that automates it even more. It's not the same, it's the next step. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ClamDrinker@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) I think you might misunderstood what Bandcamp is aiming for here. They're explicitly trying to still allow it when humans are using it (responsibly) as tools. This is essentially a ban on AI where no human is involved (or not involved enough), where the music produced is focused on quantity over quality (slop). That's a fine and nuanced distinction for a music distribution platform in my opinion. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Ok, if this is just a spam prevention I think it's fine. Obviously I didn't read the article (as tradition mandates). permalink fedilink source parent [–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 9 months ago (1 child) You suck permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago Well, maybe. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] pyre@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago* (7 children) not the same thing. AIGM is by definition not created by a human. if i tell you to create a song about a recent breakup i got through, gave you some notes about rhythm and maybe what kind of feel i would like it to have, and then you went ahead and composed the whole song, played all the instruments, provided the vocals, did the mixing and editing and gave me the result, do you think it's fair to say i made the song? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (6 children) Same as vocaloid. Or autotune. How far do we go? Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mriormro@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. I care. Clearly so do the people in support of this decision on here as well as bandcamp themselves. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 9 months ago I hope you are familiar with survivorship bias. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pyre@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (3 children) how is it like auto tune? auto tune corrects your singing, it doesn't sing for you. also, humans care? that's kind of the entire point of art? we care where art comes from. find the best painter in the world, have them make mona lisa's exact copy, and see if it sells for even remotely similar price as Mona Lisa's estimated value which is probably around a billion dollars. anyone can "enjoy" an exact copy, no? no. we care about art because art tells stories. human stories. computers don't have stories to tell. they can imitate, but the best it can ever be will be as valuable as an imitation: not much. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago (2 children) What does monetary worth have to do with anything? A photo of the Mona Lisa is an exact replica, you could even make it bigger to appreciate the details better. If what you like is the picture, you can have it. If what you want is speculation and tax write offs, then you need the scarcity. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (6 children) Same as vocaloid. Or autotune. How far do we go? Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mriormro@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. I care. Clearly so do the people in support of this decision on here as well as bandcamp themselves. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 9 months ago I hope you are familiar with survivorship bias. permalink fedilink source parent [–] pyre@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (3 children) how is it like auto tune? auto tune corrects your singing, it doesn't sing for you. also, humans care? that's kind of the entire point of art? we care where art comes from. find the best painter in the world, have them make mona lisa's exact copy, and see if it sells for even remotely similar price as Mona Lisa's estimated value which is probably around a billion dollars. anyone can "enjoy" an exact copy, no? no. we care about art because art tells stories. human stories. computers don't have stories to tell. they can imitate, but the best it can ever be will be as valuable as an imitation: not much. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago (2 children) What does monetary worth have to do with anything? A photo of the Mona Lisa is an exact replica, you could even make it bigger to appreciate the details better. If what you like is the picture, you can have it. If what you want is speculation and tax write offs, then you need the scarcity. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mriormro@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Besides, again, who cares. If you like the music, enjoy it, if not, pass. I care. Clearly so do the people in support of this decision on here as well as bandcamp themselves. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 9 months ago I hope you are familiar with survivorship bias. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev -1 points 9 months ago I hope you are familiar with survivorship bias. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] pyre@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (3 children) how is it like auto tune? auto tune corrects your singing, it doesn't sing for you. also, humans care? that's kind of the entire point of art? we care where art comes from. find the best painter in the world, have them make mona lisa's exact copy, and see if it sells for even remotely similar price as Mona Lisa's estimated value which is probably around a billion dollars. anyone can "enjoy" an exact copy, no? no. we care about art because art tells stories. human stories. computers don't have stories to tell. they can imitate, but the best it can ever be will be as valuable as an imitation: not much. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago (2 children) What does monetary worth have to do with anything? A photo of the Mona Lisa is an exact replica, you could even make it bigger to appreciate the details better. If what you like is the picture, you can have it. If what you want is speculation and tax write offs, then you need the scarcity. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago (2 children) What does monetary worth have to do with anything? A photo of the Mona Lisa is an exact replica, you could even make it bigger to appreciate the details better. If what you like is the picture, you can have it. If what you want is speculation and tax write offs, then you need the scarcity. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) oh ok, so you're a bot. there's no way a human being would think like that. someone programmed a bot to defend genAI. a bigger photo. Jesus. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago Yes, I'm a bot. Here's your cookie recipe! permalink fedilink source parent
[+] kadaverin0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (2 children) I disagree on all counts. It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. Gatekeeping and true Scotsman arguments are really grasping. I don't know what "social value" is created. A nurse or a fireman create social value. You won't see them worrying about AI. If AI could put out fires they would definitely be interested. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It had to be trained on music created by human artists. Those artists were not compensated. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. I would reject if I knew it was AI. I can't always tell, though. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. The owners of Bandcamp get to set the rules, because they own it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago You can't always tell, I can't always tell, bandcamp can't always tell. And it's only going to get harder. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev -2 points 9 months ago (2 children) I disagree on all counts. It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. Gatekeeping and true Scotsman arguments are really grasping. I don't know what "social value" is created. A nurse or a fireman create social value. You won't see them worrying about AI. If AI could put out fires they would definitely be interested. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It had to be trained on music created by human artists. Those artists were not compensated. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. I would reject if I knew it was AI. I can't always tell, though. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. The owners of Bandcamp get to set the rules, because they own it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago You can't always tell, I can't always tell, bandcamp can't always tell. And it's only going to get harder. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) It's not exploitative, it doesn't exploit anyone. It had to be trained on music created by human artists. Those artists were not compensated. It's not trash, and if it were you wouldn't need to regulate it because people would reject it on the merits. I would reject if I knew it was AI. I can't always tell, though. The space belongs to whoever wants to create art, with whatever tools they want to do it. The owners of Bandcamp get to set the rules, because they own it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago You can't always tell, I can't always tell, bandcamp can't always tell. And it's only going to get harder. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago You can't always tell, I can't always tell, bandcamp can't always tell. And it's only going to get harder. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kayohtie@pawb.social 4 points 9 months ago (5 children) If AIGM was like VSTs or vocaloids that'd be one thing. But it's more like imitation of sounds, synthesizing song chunks instead of instruments and voices themselves. The best way to think of it is something creating an audio file solely by using the Photoshop clone stamp tool across millions of source files. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago (4 children) That's not how transformer neural networks work... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 9 months ago (3 children) Sure, but we're talking generative here, as is the article, and to pretend it's referring to a tool that's been standard in libraries and even VSTs for over a decade is either misunderstanding the article or being disingenuous on purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) No, I get it. It's generative. GPT: Generative Pretrained Transformer. Music generators add a diffusion layer, but it's fundamentally new music being generated, not copies of existing songs. My point is that it's just another tool, that automates it even more. It's not the same, it's the next step. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago (4 children) That's not how transformer neural networks work... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 9 months ago (3 children) Sure, but we're talking generative here, as is the article, and to pretend it's referring to a tool that's been standard in libraries and even VSTs for over a decade is either misunderstanding the article or being disingenuous on purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) No, I get it. It's generative. GPT: Generative Pretrained Transformer. Music generators add a diffusion layer, but it's fundamentally new music being generated, not copies of existing songs. My point is that it's just another tool, that automates it even more. It's not the same, it's the next step. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 9 months ago (3 children) Sure, but we're talking generative here, as is the article, and to pretend it's referring to a tool that's been standard in libraries and even VSTs for over a decade is either misunderstanding the article or being disingenuous on purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) No, I get it. It's generative. GPT: Generative Pretrained Transformer. Music generators add a diffusion layer, but it's fundamentally new music being generated, not copies of existing songs. My point is that it's just another tool, that automates it even more. It's not the same, it's the next step. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 8 months ago (2 children) No, I get it. It's generative. GPT: Generative Pretrained Transformer. Music generators add a diffusion layer, but it's fundamentally new music being generated, not copies of existing songs. My point is that it's just another tool, that automates it even more. It's not the same, it's the next step. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kayohtie@pawb.social 1 point 8 months ago (1 child) A text prompt -> audio is not a transformer in the sense of what people are talking about, and you know it or just don't care, or don't wholly understand how these systems work under the hood as well. What I'm referring to are neural models that take an input audio and are effectively a filter that operates as a neural network. Voice mods, instrument adapters, virtual pedals, amp models... These are all actually transformative. There is actual music and effort going into these. And that is not what Bandcamp is after; those were already in heavy use like 15 years ago. The things that generate based on text are a transformer in the most technically correct sense but not in the sense of what is meant when people talk about transformative. They're fundamentally different purposes and usages. It's not generated vocals from nothing but the lyrics; it's someone else actually singing it and then a model transforming the sound to match an intended pre-set trained target, not generalization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 1 point 8 months ago They are a transformer in the same sense ChatGPT is a transformer. And hence they do generate new content that share characteristics and patterns with existing one. It's no clone tool. Lyrics are new. They probably follow the grammar rules of certain language, but it's not copy paste. Chords will probably be shared, but melody is new. Etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ClamDrinker@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) I think you might misunderstood what Bandcamp is aiming for here. They're explicitly trying to still allow it when humans are using it (responsibly) as tools. This is essentially a ban on AI where no human is involved (or not involved enough), where the music produced is focused on quantity over quality (slop). That's a fine and nuanced distinction for a music distribution platform in my opinion. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Ok, if this is just a spam prevention I think it's fine. Obviously I didn't read the article (as tradition mandates). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Ok, if this is just a spam prevention I think it's fine. Obviously I didn't read the article (as tradition mandates). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 9 months ago (1 child) You suck permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 0 points 9 months ago Well, maybe. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] UltraBlack@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago (1 child) Benn Jordan made an AI model to detect generated music but I thought he wanted to build his own platform...? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Using AI to detect AI? Someone's head is going to explode. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Tja@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago Using AI to detect AI? Someone's head is going to explode. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] bluesheep@sh.itjust.works 3 points 9 months ago* Exactly my thoughts. Tho I think that purely AI generated music would be somewhat easy to detect? As in compared to original chord progressions with AI lyrics or vice versa permalink fedilink source parent