Flax_vert comments on The Lord works in mysterious ways?

[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

You're entering the territory of the problem of evil now.

The girl that got killed is now in heaven. She got lucky before her father did. It's a narrow view to think "God didn't stop this". God clearly commands against such actions, but her father clearly went against that anyway.

The first guy went to heaven, and so did Lot's wife. You're forgetting the context of what death is.

As for the young people that were mocking Elisha, they were literally telling him to "go up" and essentially die. He uses God's name in vain. The action isn't endorsed, and there's similar cases of moses doing it on a smaller scale.

The Bible shows where it's prophets and apostles flaw and err. And it's important to document these flaws. The overarching story here is that perfection came through Jesus- not the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, or priests. To just isolate random instances and get offended at them is very shallow. It doesn't even make sense as an argument against the text or God- you can't really say "god doesn't exist because I disagree with him". And if God exists and you disagree with the literal author of mortality, the universe and mankind, you're the one who's wrong. These stories have no bearing on God's existence. God gives us our life and can take it away whenever He pleases. The fact that He is patient enough to let us live is in itself showing His mercy - considering that we do little other than rebel against Him constantly.

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[–] ferrule@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

It's not really a Problem of Evil situation. Its about God taking payment for services rendered when the payment is evil. The fact God was with him before doesn't matter because God already knew what the payment would be. It would be the equivalent of me telling someone I'm going to pay you to off someone and you overhearing. You decide to take the job before I actually ask you in person. When I ask you to do you you never say no, you perform the act and then I pay you. How is that not services performed for payment? You had the opportunity to not take the job. You had the opportunity to tell me you'd do it for free. Instead you did the job knowing fully well I'd pay you.

As for the heaven, you're skipping the important part. Jephthah told his daughter he was going to kill her. Not in the moment but months before it would happen. She woke up every day knowing soon she was going to be killed by her father. Every time they saw each other they thought about that future moment. She couldn't make plans because soon her father was going to kill her. She was a dead woman walking.

Then when the day came it wasn't some quick, painless put you to sleep kind of act. Burnt offerings were a specific ritual. You bleed out the offering. She probably laid there choking on her own blood with her father looking down at her. All for the sake of allowing her father to win a war. He could have sacrificed himself, could have disobeyed God. But instead she was laying there dying for her father to win.

My point of the other scenarios, they are all examples where God stepped in and changed the natural order of things. None of those people were dying. God turn a woman to salt, took control of bears to eat children, smite a guy. God has the ability to step in and change reality and yet here he didn't knowing full well before any of it happening what would transpire. To equate this to the image, God nudged the bullet knowing full well the firefighter was going to be killed. He could have nudged it in any other direction, could have given the shooter a heart attach, could have let it hit the Cheeto. But instead he performed the necessary action to make someone else be killed.

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[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

You said it's not the problem of evil, then proceed to basically say "if God is real, why do these bad things happen?" If God stopped these instances, the goalposts will be moved to as to why evil happens at all.

Saying that discussing heaven is "skipping the important part" then defining the "important part" as two months of suffering compared with an eternity of bliss doesn't compute either.

In all of these instances, it's humans disobeying God and you're blaming God when the consequences are faced. To quote Samuel, the writer of judges:

In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

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[–] ferrule@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

You apparently don't understand the Problem of Evil. I'm not asking why would he kill his daughter. I'm saying why did God accept human sacrifice as payment for beefing up his army? God knew payment would be given and then performed the task. God could have not beefed up the army. He could have not rendered services, and yet he did. He accepted human sacrifice as payment plain and simple.

An eternity of bliss? I think you mean spending all eternity remembering how she was brutally murdered. Will see see her dad there? Because that is some PTSD triggering shit waiting to happen. And being around God all the time knowing that your last moments on earth could have been totally different but God needed a good story for his book so she gets her throat cut all for her dad to gain more riches. That's horrible.

No I'm not blaming God in those instances. I'm saying that God steps in and causes punishment TO THE OFFENDERS. And yet in the case of Jephthah no only is he not punished, God grants his wish and then doesn't reject payment.

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[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

So you're saying that God should have cancelled His plans because a dude made a stupid vow?

The girl also didn't seem to protest too much. In fact, she appeared to encourage him. She asked for two weeks up a mountain. It would have been ample time to run away. She didn't.

Judges 11:36-40

And she said to him, “My father, you have opened your mouth to the Lord; do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, now that the Lord has avenged you on your enemies, on the Ammonites.” So she said to her father, “Let this thing be done for me: leave me alone two months, that I may go up and down on the mountains and weep for my virginity, I and my companions.” So he said, “Go.” Then he sent her away for two months, and she departed, she and her companions, and wept for her virginity on the mountains. And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow that he had made. She had never known a man, and it became a custom in Israel that the daughters of Israel went year by year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in the year.

If you were given an eternity in paradise, why would you waste it thinking about one event back on earth? Some people die worse deaths. And why would you be pissed at God for not making your crappy life a thousand years ago slightly less crappy? You don't have trauma in Heaven.

Revelation 21:3-4

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

His daughter didn't even worry about dying that much- she was more upset that she didn't have the chance to have offspring. Even she knew that eternity was better than what she had here.

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[–] ferrule@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago*

I'm saying that your timeline is wrong as you're thinking temporally which is incorrect. Before Jephthah existed God knew he would make this bargan. God decided to render services and take payment. None of these things needed to happen but they did. So God takes human sacrifice as payment. Full Stop.

As for the rest of your comment, I find it funny that you were hung up on context when you're showing you have no grasp of the historical context of this story. You ask why wouldn't she run away. If you read the laws about slavery you'd understand that without being tied directly to her father or given to a husband she would be ripe for the picking into slavery. She has no rights as a single woman. Be she one of God's chosen or one of the heathen around them, she would become someone's property for life with no chance of being set free.

Further more your lack of historical context shows why you're falling for such an obvious male author statement with her going off into the woods. She states she wants to morn the loss of her ability to get married. Marriage at that time was a financial contract between the father and the husband. Her value to the family is what they can sell her for. She was not mourning some true love she will never find. The claim is that she is sad she won't be sold off to some man for a handful of goats.

And the heaven part, again missing context of what was believed at that time. Judges was prior to the Second Temple period so the afterlife concept was drastically different than the christian style heaven. Sheol was a place where good and evil alike went. This was no paradise, just a place where the souls go to rest.

So no, your idea that she'd just be cool with being exsanguinated and then go on for eternity in bliss is just flat out contextually wrong.

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