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Classic .ml shittake on Ukraine (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
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[–] 11 points 2 years ago (1 child)

That's overly simplistic. Fascists and theocrats work together to gain power for all the time. See the current marriage of Trump and Christian Nationalists in the United States, for example.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    That has nothing to do with my claim which is specific to Islam. As Islam posits a caliphate as the ideal state it is incompatible with fascism which requires faith to be subservient to the state. Iran cannot be as Muslim fascist theocracy

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    There is often a very large gap between what is seen as ideal and what pans out in reality. Fascism is absolutely a possible result of an attempt to establish a caliphate, just as an authoritarian dictatorship or oligarchy - sooner or later - is a possible result of an attempt to establish communism.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    If you end up fascist you cannot be a Muslim theocratic state which is what Islam posits as the ideal this you cannot have a state that is both fascist and an Islamic theocracy. This combination is entirely possible for other faiths that do not posit an ideal state.

    You cannot be both.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You're making a pure semantics argument, saying that an "Islamic theocracy" means something so specific that even if a fascist regime could be considered both Islamic and a theocracy, you can't call it that because only caliphates qualify for that label. It's a bit silly.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    No I am not making a semantic argument. The role if faith in a theocracy and the role of the state religion in a fascist state are entirely different.

    The only theocratic state that can exist in Islam is a caliphate. That’s literally what is in the Quran. There’s no nuance or room for debate here.

    Do you hate Islam? Is that why this is so hard for you to grasp?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    The only theocratic state that can exist in Islam is a caliphate. That’s literally what is in the Quran. There’s no nuance or room for debate here.

    Hypothetically, if a fascist government were to form with Islam as the state religion, I would describe it as an Islamic theocracy as well as a fascist dictatorship. To suggest they are mutually exclusive and that only a caliphate - the ideal Islamic theocracy as described in the Quran - can truly be considered an Islamic theocracy is just the No True Scotsman fallacy.

    This is a common issue with organized religion in general. To an insider, only your beliefs are the true Islam, and all those others who call themselves Muslims but don't share your exact interpretation aren't real Muslims. To an outsider it's obvious that they are all Muslim, just different sects. No single sect can claim their interpretation is the correct one, yet most try anyway.

    Do you hate Islam? Is that why this is so hard for you to grasp?

    I have no hate for Islam, and I grasp what you're saying just fine, I just disagree.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago

    And I would argue it cannot be a theocracy if it ignores the concept of the caliphate. The caliph is the ideal in Islam. The goal of the faith is to have the entire world in a single caliphate worshipping Allah as their faith dictates.

    To be clear Im not a muslim and I know you aren't either by the use of the term "sects". Most Muslims maintain there is only one Islam.

    Regardless you can easily see what the ideal state is for Islam by learning what the goals of the faith are, or you could just consider that ISIL/ISIS/DAESH or Al Quaeda have the caliphate as their primary goal and then work back from there.

    OK so you aren't super familiar with Islam, is there any reason I should believe you know how a fascist state functions so that ypu can see the conflict?

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