99
To fool the people, capitalism promises to be what communism actually is. (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/communism@lemmygrad.ml
54 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 40 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (36 children)

"their circlejerk" it's you libs that cannot stand proper debate and end up banning everyone that doesn't align with your orthodoxy. Countless times I've seen many communists arguing in good faith and defending their points in very popular mainstream communities and guess how they're treated? With bans.

You come here and post some random ass picture out of nowhere clearly in bad faith and label it "meanwhile in communist china". While it is true China is not perfect and poverty absolutely exists, your comment was clearly made in bad faith in the typical smug-lib fashion, devoid of any critical thinking... Because if you did have any, you'd know about the poverty alleviation campaign in China that ended back in 2020. If you want to have a proper discussion and not be met with hostility, at least make it sound like you do, because I'm sure there are lots of people here that are willing to listen to your arguments and argue back, unlike in the so-called free-thinking liberal spaces.

Slight deviation here, but I find it funny how y'all love to pretend China is capitalist until the moment any imperfection (there are many, and no sane communist would ever deny them, unlike you libs under your capitalist regimes) appears. When that happens, suddenly China is communist and all proper discussions about said imperfection, such as how it came to be and how it can be resolved, (usually made by communists lol) are terminated, since it is you libs and your thought-terminating anticommunist orthodoxy that refuse to look at anything in a critical lens.

Edit: typos and added sources

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 36 child comments
    •
  • [–] 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    With bans.

    Sometimes, it's worse than ban. It's shadow ban.

    I have a feeling that YouTube has this particular behavior where, if my comment was simple and trollish, it's visible for everyone to see. But if it contains proper analysis that combat the propaganda, it's invisible.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [+] -35 points 2 years ago (33 children)

    Man, that's a lot of text.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 33 child comments
    •
  • [–] 29 points 2 years ago (24 children)

    Yeah, people here don't have to sound out our words when we read.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 24 child comments
    •
  • [+] -24 points 2 years ago (23 children)

    Maybe that's it but I think it's more along the lines of just "post a baseless meme in good faith then stroke each other until we all cum on it." Nobody seems to point out the ridiculous nature of the original meme but you folks practically fall over each other in an effort to retort any comment that points out that fact.

    I'm all for believing in a ideal but come on, you've got to admit it would take an 11 year old child's sense of reality to even believe the insinuation of the OP.

    And shit on the US all you want. It's a terrible system controlled by corporations and the only people that believe who they vote for matters are dimwits that believe the bullshit pedaled to them by the media. I just think you should also understand that the reality of your ideal is no better. It's just different branding of the same control by those at the top.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 23 child comments
    •
  • [–] 9 points 2 years ago (22 children)

    And shit on the US all you want. It’s a terrible system controlled by corporations and the only people that believe who they vote for matters are dimwits that believe the bullshit pedaled to them by the media. I just think you should also understand that the reality of your ideal is no better. It’s just different branding of the same control by those at the top.

    There have been some material pointed at you for reading already, so I just want to say that this is just common liberal thinking used to discredit any attempt of change by claiming everything is the same, "it's all different power hungry elites at the top" stuff.

    That's a fundamentally wrong view of how societies work that not only completely ignores class struggle, also ignores all the advancement made in socialist societies. You are already on the right path and identified that the US is controlled by corporations, you just gotta go further and realize these corporations have owners, the extremely wealthy, the capitalist class. From there you can start to understand the interests a government serves under a capitalist society. That's not to say there haven't been any mistakes and wrongdoings in socialist societies, far from that, we are very aware of that and self-critique is core to communist thought.

    With all that said, there isn't much I can add here that will convince you or anything, this is something that takes willingness, time and research. What I can ask of you is to at least give it a fair thought. If you want good starting places in a video format in english, give Second Thought, Hakim and Yugopnik a watch from time to time.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 22 child comments
    •
  • [–] -5 points 2 years ago* (21 children)

    I appreciate the links as well as the liberal branding. It's kind of nifty, I've been called a liberal more times in this comment section than I have in my entire life.. In reality, however, I'm an older, irrelevant American that has never voted in his life, mostly because of the corruption in the system that I've watched while growing up, which made me realize that my political system, like religion, is a farce that keeps people in a malleable mindset so they can be kept docile and funding the machine. I wouldn't say I have a partisan thinking in one way or the other but if not giving a single shit about who our next president is is "liberal", I guess I fit the bill.

    I am not saying that it couldn't be better. I'm simply saying that it will never be better.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 21 child comments
    •
  • [+] 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (16 children)
    [deleted]
  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 16 child comments
    •
  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (15 children)

    I do, lol. The potential for change is there lol but there will never be an event lol that makes it occur. lol.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 15 child comments
    •
  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (14 children)

    Why?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
    •
  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (13 children)

    Well, I'm no historian but from what I've read, the one thing that caused uprisings was a tipping point that made life practically unsustainable for a majority of people and those people had lived a life with enough strife to have a backbone. The powerful have learned from the past and know that minorities and outliers can be fucked with all they want but they need to actually manipulate the larger masses, make sure they have enough comforts to stay fat and happy and they just rake in the profits/power. Just take a look at what passes for news now for an example of this.

    This post is a good example of what our new keyboard activism consists of. In the past, where enough people might have gathered together to start forcing change, now, a huge number of people go to their favorite social network, post some bullshit non-factual, baseless meme and that gives them their dopamine rush, no uprising needed. If they do that enough times(just check the OP's post history for veracity, content and frequency) and they get the same feel-good chemical that someone might get from improving their country's political system without actually doing a single thing to improve their situation.

    We are a soft, easily led and frightened populace. As long as someone is there to tell us they'll protect us and allow us to keep our guns, cars, big tvs and phones, we will let them do practically anything they want to us. The US will never see the numbers of people willing to struggle for forced change.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 13 child comments
    •
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (12 children)

    Do you think these treats that placate the Workers in first world countries are sustainable? If the vast majority of these treats are manufactured in areas where cost of living is kept low so as to lower prices and raise profits, don't you believe that these workers are not getting their treats?

    Why is it that Socialism props up fairly frequently in countries that the US and other western powers depend on for cheap production, forcing the US to retaliate?

    Capitalism itself is unsustainable, even if it appears to be within the Imperial Core. The treats delay revolution, yes, but the treats themselves aren't going to be as cheap as they are forever, as the global south organizes against their exploiters.

    Once the treats run dry, you will see revolution in the US.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (11 children)

    I'm fairly confident it won't be in my lifetime so, no, I don't think I'll see revolution and I don't think it will be revolution but rather a toppling of the system simply because of unsustainability. All empires crumble eventually, this one will be no different. That doesn't mean any of the masses instigated change. They will have just sat on their ass posting their memes and bitching on Facebook until someone quit paying the power bill.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (10 children)

    Why? Vibes? Or actual analysis of trends and historical events?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (9 children)

    I don't think anything I do could be considered analysis. I'm just fairly observant and have always paid attention to how a population reacts to what I consider atrocities towards the masses and we have become increasingly ok with what's done to us. I have not yet seen the trend reverse in any meaningful way.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (8 children)

    Have you considered that analysis of data, historical trends, and broader systems may be more accurate than gut feelings based on one person's observations?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (7 children)

    Well, I feel that's obvious. It's also why you will never find me posting some ridiculous AI image laden meme in a community espousing my beliefs. The only reason you happen to know them is because you asked. I would never try to convince a group of people that what I believe is the One True Belief as I lack the ego for that. It's just my take on what I see around me.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (6 children)

    Sure. You came here to express your voice, after all. However, I do think that it's largely unproductive to speak loudly or definitively on matters you haven't yet thoroughly investigated. Asking questions is one thing, but having beliefs based on nothing but passive observation individually seems a bit rocky.

    Perhaps leading with a question and sharing your current understanding would be a more productive way to frame a discussion?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    Perhaps leading with a question and sharing your current understanding would be a more productive way to frame a discussion?

    I'll save that for a legitimate post. The OP never had productivity in mind with this one.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    Why?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    To honor and respect the the OP's intention that this be a shitpost without substance.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
    •
  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago* (3 children)

    Just an FYI.

    Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. When you are called a liberal, here, it does not mean that people think you support the democrats or whatever 'progressive' wing/party of US electoral politics. The republicans are liberals, too. Any party that gets close to power in the US will almost certainly be liberal. The greens included (or whatever their official name). [Edit: so the next US president is going to be a liberal whatever happens.]

    When you criticise the US for being run by corporations and oppose socialism/communism, you are not challenging capitalism i.e. liberalism. The same for when you argue that things will never be better, as if capitalism/liberalism is all that can exist. That's called the 'end of history thesis' and it functions to support capitalism. Hence people calling you liberal.

    Unfortunately US political discourse has distorted certain words beyond all meaning. This makes it harder to have rigorous conversations about political economy, which is why they do it.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
    •
  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    When you criticise the US for being run by corporations and oppose socialism/communism, you are not challenging capitalism i.e. liberalism.

    I think that's where our discourse is having a hiccup. I don't oppose socialism/communism. I simply understand it's as capable of being manipulated by those in power as capitalism is. My whole reason for commenting on this post has nothing to do with socialism/communism and everything to do with the OP being a sycophantic cheerleader for an ideological utopia that doesn't exist. The actual discussion I've had in the comment section(for the most part) has been by intellectuals that I've enjoyed having and I've learned a lot. The OP, however, is just a dumpsterfire of a shitpost which was my siren call to have fun with.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    I don't oppose socialism/communism. I simply understand it's as capable of being manipulated by those in power as capitalism is.

    You're right and this is where we contrast how socialist governments handle corruption vs how capitalist ones do. China is a good, contemporary example to show how a communist party deals with external corruption, creating laws with consequences for corruption that have a meaningful impact on those in charge, meaning everyone in positions of power are less likely to repeat those actions. A CEO who commits financial fraud or oversees a company that commits fraud sees jail time or even execution under extreme circumstances (this happened recently in Vietnam). The company can also be seized by the state so that it continues operating, changing little for the workers, but removing the ability for those at the top to profit from the business any longer. Under capitalist governments, they get a fine that is small relative to their crime, so crime becomes a cost of doing business, which just serves to encourage those crimes.

    For internal corruption, the communist parties themselves conduct purges, meaning they review the quality of their members and expel those who are not committed to the values of the party through a democratic process. Members found guilty of crimes can be punished similar to the CEOs. Ineffectual leaders can be removed from power. Effectual leaders (such as Xi and Stalin) can be voted in for much longer periods of time, allowing them to progress long-term projects that are not possible within the term limits often used in liberal states. What checks against corruption do we see for politicians in liberal parties? Charges of corruption are frequently dismissed.

    Power can corrupt in all societies, but it's important we focus on how to deal with that corruption instead of writing everything off because corruption exists. A dictatorship of working people allows the working class to hold everyone accountable in ways that dictatorships of the owner class choose not to.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    Power can corrupt in all societies, but it's important we focus on how to deal with that corruption instead of writing everything off because corruption exists. A dictatorship of working people allows the working class to hold everyone accountable in ways that dictatorships of the owner class choose not to.

    This seems to be my struggle. Cynicism and the sheer amount of flagrant corruption I have seen over the course of my lifetime has made it very hard for me to trust in any system, it seems.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 21 points 2 years ago (7 children)

    it really isn't, but if all you can say is "that's a lot of text" then idk what to tell you. Maybe stick around with an open mind and try interacting with the community for a while! You could start by asking (good faith) questions in a few threads, like "oh why do you people support X (genuine question)" and you'll not only be met with respect but have the opportunity to have a proper discussion.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
    •
  • [+] -10 points 2 years ago (6 children)

    I truly appreciate the offer and I do see a lot of posts from the group in my feed so I get some sense of the ethos but be honest. Seeing the meme that started this thread is not a good-faith "let's discuss the differences" that some of you seem to be saying the group is made up of. It's more along the lines of "Let's shit on this thing over here, say our thing is awesome, even through it's awfully flawed as well" and then half your crew falls apart when someone points that out.

    I often do find myself with questions regarding what makes the community so fervent but in fairness, anyone that believes the bullshit being pedaled in the meme would not be someone I would expect a level-headed explanation from.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] 14 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    I understand, and I also won't deny there are people online who glorify China (and past Socialism, such as the Eastern Bloc) and genuinely believe everything there was/is perfect. To me, it's as anticommunist and dangerous to believe and promote this narrative as the opposite one, where everything there is dystopian, freedom doesn't exist and whatnot. To pretend a problem in a given social system either doesn't exist or that is being addressed correctly will only make things worse for the people living under that system.

    In Blackshirts and Reds, Parenti goes in great detail about the deficiencies of the former Eastern Bloc in Chapter 4. It's a great book overall, and easy to read.

    China is a country with a very complex history (bound to happen when your civilisation spans over 5000 years) that barely managed to free itself from the shackles of Imperialism, so to believe that after 1949 (founding of the PRC) every single problem of the old society went away is just wishful thinking. They made many mistakes and there was excess mortality in many instances, for example the Cultural Revolution. They've improved a lot since then, but still have ways to go as Socialist construction progresses.

    Lastly, as for the contents of the meme, yeah I'm not a great fan of these so I can relate to you in this regard.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
    •
  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    Without a hint of sarcasm, I would like to say that I've truly enjoyed reading your comments. Thanks for the thoughtful and informative discussion. It was a bright spot in my day.

    In Blackshirts and Reds, Parenti goes in great detail about the deficiencies of the former Eastern Bloc in Chapter 4. It’s a great book overall, and easy to read.

    I downloaded it and will try to give it a read. As was pointed out by one of your comrades, I have to sound out the words so sometimes a lot of the context is lost on me.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    I know this is digging up an old thread, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Blackshirts and Reds?

    For me, the historical context provided in this book was very eye-opening and a big part of what led me to dig deeper into how socialism works outside of the anti-communist propaganda I'd been fed throughout my life and formal education.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I'm sorry for the delay in replying. The book is incredibly eye-opening but it's one I will have to read more than once. My struggle is not just what I've been taught in the past but also how little I looked for myself. It's shocking how much I have to Google while reading it.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    It's shocking how much I have to Google while reading it.

    We all go through it, even if it's just learning terms we're unfamiliar with. Your other points resonate with me as well. It can take a lot of effort to work through (because there's so much to read!), but I've also found it's been very rewarding.

    Thank you for taking the time to read it. Most people we encounter don't even bother to engage with anything that opposes their established worldview. It's not trivial and requires an inquisitive mind. Many people don't care enough to even try.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent