Both auto-forwarding and auto-reply are paid features, which makes cancelling & switching much more difficult. Gmail is a breeze comparatively. I highly recommend against using their addresses (e.g. protonmail.com, proton.me, pm.me)

Email forwarding is available for everyone with a paid Proton Mail plan.

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[–] 43 points 1 year ago (16 children)

No, Proton email addresses do not. I have ProtonMail addresses using my domain. If tomorrow I point to another email provider, Proton can do nothing about it.

Being paid feature vs free is not vendor lock-in.

You are spreading misinformation, either by misrepresenting the situation or by not understanding what "vendor" (an arguable term since apparently you are focusing on the free version) is lock-in means.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I think OP is overblowing things, and is especially misguided in recommending gmail, but at the same time, they do have a valid point and I think you're somewhat misrepresenting what they said.

    For one, they specifically said that the proton domain email addresses are problematic (protonmail.com, pm.me), and weren't talking about custom domains that sit in front of Proton mail.

    For two, their point is valid. Auto-forwarding being paid, does create vendor lock-in and make it hard to switch away from Protonmail if you use the OOTB addresses. It's something worth considering.

    As you said, the recommendation should be to use a custom domain that sits in front of Protonmail rather than switching to Gmail, but paid auto-forwarding is a valid criticism.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I don't think the OP is saying to switch to gmail. They're saying if you think switching from gmail is hard, just wait until you have to pay to forward all of your email if you need to move away from Proton mail if they end up being as bad as Google. They're saying use something else that's neither gmail nor proton mail.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    if you think switching from gmail is hard, just wait until

    I actually did switch from GMail so... I feel like I'm a relatively good place to talk about precisely this problem.

    It also was very easy because I used my own domain back then. I switched from GMail to Proton and nobody noticed. I didn't have to change 1 single account or warn 1 single person.

    OP is not talking about switch email providers in general but rather a very specific case which is indeed problematic but is not IMHO related to lock-in.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Not lock-in in the traditional sense where you're locked to a particular technology, but effectively lock-in by making a commonly used feature for migration not available for free. This wasn't discussing uncommon cases like having your own domain in front of a free email service since that's not then fully free.

    The most common use of free email services is to use the service's domain and if you need to switch, then needing to change your email at tons of different places. I am still stuck on gmail for a couple of accounts because changing the email with those services means creating an entirely new account and thus losing all history, etc. Example is the Shop app. Without forwarding I'd end up having to keep the gmail app on my phone to get notification of new emails which is problematic since those apps come with additional tracking services which is the whole reason for migrating from gmail.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    A while ago i bought a custom domain from namecheap but i don't seem to feel safe using it for banking, would you recommend using it for my bank instead of a protonmail email alias?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Maybe I'm missing something, do you often communicate via email to your bank?

    I know I do not. Pretty much never ever. That being said if I were to have to, rather than via their website or phone call, I can update that data on my bank account. I'm sure I must go through few (security) hoops to do it but I doubt it takes me more than 5min. In such case... I would put whatever email and I need to switch because I don't want to pay for that domain anymore then I would just update my contact information there.

    TL;DR: I also use my own domain name for banking but in my case I'd argue it doesn't matter much.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I have selfhosted my mail on my own domain, on a server in my closet, for about 4 years. In that time I never switched over realy important things, like government etc, out of fear of missing an email and not knowing. That was the only reason not to switch for me. I've had to move a few times in a short peroid and my career started taking more of my time, so I have less time to manage the server, thus I started looking around. Now I settled on proton, I don't use any of their domains, only my own, and I've switched literally everything over, except for the recovery mail for my domain registrar login. Since proton hosts professionally, I trust them not to drop mails without telling me, and I don't realy see a reason not to switch over. If I ever want to move provider, or start selfhosting again, I'll setup the new provider, update the dns for my domain and done.

    If you have some specific questions about my setup or choices, let me know, although I'm probably not able to reply in the next 12ish hours.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I have Proton Mail addresses using my domain.

    Those are your addresses then not Proton's. Hence why switching is easy and is irrelevant to my complaint which is specific to the domains listed

    Wikipedia says...

    In economics, vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs.

    If I want to switch away I have to pay every month in perpetuity to deliver emails to my new provider. In other words, I'll always have to be a customer

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  • if you're not actually promoting gmail, you ought to make that explicitly clear.

    by pointing out something bad about proton and praising gmail's version of that, it looks like you're doing nothing other than recommending gmail in a privacy community.

    everyone already knows gmail has high usability and convenience and zero (financial) cost. using it as an example in this community is redundant and ineffective. better to use another e2ee email service as an example.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    my beef with proton mail is that i can't use it on thunderbird and their android app doesn't have notifications (at least without google spy services.)

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I use it on Thunderbird. I just couldn’t grow to like thunderbird.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    i couldn't set it up and it went a little beyond my understanding why, but apparently it's a paid feature. i don't necessarily love thubderbird either, but it does its job for me

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yes I realized this too late, after I had already used the private email adresses from proton pass everywhere.

    My solution ( while not completely private but better than using the same one everywhere) Is to use my own firstname.lastname@domainicontroll.com for thing already linked to personal info and then set up custom domain for proton pass hidden emails to @fuckgoogle.otherdomain.com

    Then if proton ever goes to shit I can still go to another email provider and all I have to do is move the domains. Yes it isn't free but there is no such thing as a free lunch, self hosting isn't free either and I don't have the mental bandwidth to self host an email server right now.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    All email services have vendor lock-in unless your using your own domain.

    For what it is worth, I just moved my mail from my ISP to my own domain at a hosting service after 30 years. Took about 5 months to get everything changed but if I can do it anyone can.

    Downside, using your own domain is probably less private but kind of depends.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I don't support Proton for other reasons, but I'll note that if anyone is having this problem you can use a half-measure of setting your other email address as a recovery email and enabling "daily email notifications", which will email you once a day if there's unread stuff in your Proton mailbox.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Can I ask what those other reasons are? (genuinely curious if I should switch away from them)

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The straw that broke the camel's back for me is the CEO's icky tweet about how great Republicans are for your privacy and how they stand up for the little guys (what), which they doubled down on using the official Reddit Proton account. There's already been a ton of discussion about this on the internet if you care to look for more angles on it.

    But before that I'd already grown quite leery of them for their trend of endlessly starting new services before the old ones are polished, along with trying to push everyone into their walled garden and endlessly using naggy popups in the UI about it. Worst of all, they have a clear trend of not giving a damn about Linux support, sometimes giving up on certain features for their Linux clients or releasing the clients way after the Windows/Mac versions. For a "privacy company", not putting Linux as a first-class citizen is really just unacceptable, and they've been around for long enough that it's clearly a trend and not a fluke. To me, Proton just feels like a wannabe version of Apple. Its continued actions give me the feeling that it exists to serve itself, not its users.

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  • Thanks for the extensive response! You make some really good points and I was unaware of the political ick. Not sure if it's enough to make me leave them because they do seem to at least handle the privacy aspect of their services correctly (for now at least), but those do seem like good areas that I'm going to watch more closely about them from now on.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    How do you expect anything to be completely free?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Point seems to be that people are switching from gmail to proton for free email, but it's going to be even more difficult if Proton becomes like Google turned out since you'll have to pay to get all the email to your new address while you are transitioning to whatever is next. Instead go to that next thing now before you get "locked in" by having all of your important emails going there. With gmail at least you can forward the emails for free from the places you forget to change your email with at first.

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    [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I mostly use my custom domain on protonmail for reasons like this.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Reminder of this:

    https://poolp.org/posts/2019-08-30/you-should-not-run-your-mail-server-because-mail-is-hard/

    And that mailu.io (and other similar projects) makes self-hosting email almost trivial 😁 (at least for people that can run a pre-configured docker-compose.yml and buy their domain etc)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

    Thank you for raising this point.

    Are there even other privacy-respecting email providers that are fit for the job? I'm genuinely curious.

    EDIT: I absolute hate doing this, but I want to understand: Why is this getting downvoted?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    DuckDuckGo will give you free forwarding with a duck.com address. It also strips all trackers. I love it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    This is pretty cool and definitely has use, but IIUC this is strictly a free forwarding address, right? I don't think it tries to compete with Proton Mail or Tuta Mail.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    Correct, that’s all it is. But if a live person is asking me for an email, and I don’t want to break out my phone to generate something complicated and hard for them to understand, this works great. (They have enough trouble understanding “duck.com,” even though after the first few instances of utter confusion, I now say, “@duck.com, like the bird, quack, quack.” And they still get extremely confused.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Mailbox.org is a good pick to consider IMO. You can read some comparisons on PrivacyGuides, which I also recommend as a starting point for these sorts of topics. The mailbox.org web UI is not great, but it allows IMAP/SMTP access, so I use Thunderbird on both desktop and Android in order to interact with my inbox. My inbox is auto-encrypted with PGP using their Mailbox Guard thing, so my emails are all encrypted garbage on the web UI anyway. Mailbox.org only allows paid-for accounts, but considering the annoying stuff that Proton and Tuta do to their free accounts I'd rather just be honest about the service I'm getting. It allows auto-forwarding directly in the web UI, but given that you can hook up to it with IMAP anyway, it's not like you couldn't just do it yourself.

    (Also, as another comment said I also recommend DuckDuckGo's Email Protection for email aliasing if you need it.)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Thank you! Great answer!

    For some reason, perhaps because I'm an absolute shill/sucker for free services, I always forget about mailbox.org. Thank you for bringing it to my attention and talking about its features!

    Though, if I understand correctly, we basically don't have a privacy-respecting email provider that offers auto-forward and auto-reply functionality in its free plan/tier:

    • Proton Mail requires a paid plan for auto-forwarding/replying and its free plan doesn't support IMAP. BUT?!, crucially, IIUC, the issue can already be circumvented with a custom domain that sits in front of Proton Mail. Which, isn't entirely free, but 1$ for the domain ain't bad.
    • Tuta Mail doesn't even offer the functionality AFAIK nor does it support IMAP. Furthermore, I don't know if the custom domain trick works for this one.
    • Finally, mailbox.org doesn't even have a free plan. Though, at 1 euro/month, it's at least very competitively priced.
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  • [+] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [+] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)