▲ 1400 ▼ [meme] There is no one-size-fits-all solution to transportation (lemmy.world) submitted 2 years ago by Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world to c/fuckcars@lemmy.world 241 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] grue@lemmy.world 20 points 2 years ago (2 children) Or is the thread one of the naiive ones trying to argue about how we can completely eliminate cars? You say that as if those threads are actually a common thing, and not just a strawman accusation from the fevered dreams of car-brains. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child) Go into a thread on autonomous cars and all you'll hear is about how they're useless and we don't need them because we'll just eliminate all cars before they're ready. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) I have literally never seen that argument made. Usually, what I see in those threads are a whole bunch of people arguing that autonomous cars would be some kind of silver-bullet panacea for traffic. Frankly, what you wrote sounds like a strawman misinterpretation of an argument I myself make: I argue that autonomous cars are not a solution, but not "because we’ll just eliminate all cars before they’re ready." They're not a solution simply because they're still cars, and therefore take up the same grossly excessive amount of space as non-autonomous cars do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 13 points 2 years ago (2 children) They’re not a solution simply because they’re still cars, and therefore take up the same grossly excessive amount of space as non-autonomous cars do. Yeah, the only things autonomous cars might reduce are: Parking, but only if we forego our current private ownership model and everyone starts doing self-driving robo-taxis everywhere (unlikely) Road fatalities, but only if the self-driving tech proves statistically better than human drivers in a wide range of conditions (jury is still out) It's the same fundamental problem that electric cars have: geometry. Cars -- even if electric and self-driving -- are simply grossly inefficient at moving people for the amount of land they require: permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Flumpkin@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago The velomobile (electric or manual) is the most efficient transport in energy per mile. You could easily design something like a self driving podbike, maybe a little bigger, weighing maybe 100kg. And self driving also allows for new configurations, e.g. two seats that face each other because you don't need a steering wheel. That means much more narrow and aerodynamic "micro cars" that could solve a lot of edge cases for people who can't drive or not that long or fast (50kmh / 30mph). They might compete with a big bus. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -5 points 2 years ago (2 children) Except that the jury is not "still out" on number two, it is simply a matter of time, engineering, and training before they are statistically safer than humans. Waymo's cars are already safer than humans in their limited conditions. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) I agree that they're already statistically safer in limited conditions; the key part is when/if they will surpass in a wide range of conditions, including heavy snow or the disorganized and often unmarked roads of developing countries, for instance. For what it's worth, however, I do think the tech will eventually get there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Ignisnex@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Just an observation, humans aren't able to navigate heavy snow and disorganized traffic any better. We guess where the road should be, what the conditions are, and where other cars are, and commit with full confidence in our lack of knowledge. It works OK, but there are infinity examples of it not working. Literally any logic behind navigating these scenarios is better that what we can do with our feeble meat suits. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* My only point is that if I'm being super pessimistic about timescales, I'm estimating ~30years for self driving cars to clearly surpass human drivers, and multiple generations before you eliminate human error from dangerously designed roads, to drunk driving, to distracted driving, to sleepy driving etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -3 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Congratulations that you haven't, that's evidently because youre not in there correcting people when they claim that autonomous cars aren't a solution. As long as cars are on the roads and humans are driving them they will continue to kill and maim people. Autonomous cars are the only remotely viable solution to that. They might not be fully ready for all situations yet, but they will be ready on the scale of a decade or two, whereas reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. No, that's defeatist bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago It's called risk analysis / wisdom / not planning exclusively for the best possible outcome in case the world doesn't go exactly you as you hoped it would. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent [–] derf82@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I mean, y’all literally call the place “fuck cars.” You call anyone that disagrees with you a “car-brain.” Not a lot of nuance. As someone scrolling by from all, I’m actually surprised to see any acknowledgement that some people may need to rely on private automobiles. Maybe y’all need to work on your messaging. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FarceOfWill@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago Messaging is for urbanist and transport subs, this is a place to bellow "fuck cars" until your voice is hoarse. If you do want a serious discussion of posting here is just going to frustrate you and give you a very weird idea of the movement. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child) Go into a thread on autonomous cars and all you'll hear is about how they're useless and we don't need them because we'll just eliminate all cars before they're ready. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) I have literally never seen that argument made. Usually, what I see in those threads are a whole bunch of people arguing that autonomous cars would be some kind of silver-bullet panacea for traffic. Frankly, what you wrote sounds like a strawman misinterpretation of an argument I myself make: I argue that autonomous cars are not a solution, but not "because we’ll just eliminate all cars before they’re ready." They're not a solution simply because they're still cars, and therefore take up the same grossly excessive amount of space as non-autonomous cars do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 13 points 2 years ago (2 children) They’re not a solution simply because they’re still cars, and therefore take up the same grossly excessive amount of space as non-autonomous cars do. Yeah, the only things autonomous cars might reduce are: Parking, but only if we forego our current private ownership model and everyone starts doing self-driving robo-taxis everywhere (unlikely) Road fatalities, but only if the self-driving tech proves statistically better than human drivers in a wide range of conditions (jury is still out) It's the same fundamental problem that electric cars have: geometry. Cars -- even if electric and self-driving -- are simply grossly inefficient at moving people for the amount of land they require: permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Flumpkin@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago The velomobile (electric or manual) is the most efficient transport in energy per mile. You could easily design something like a self driving podbike, maybe a little bigger, weighing maybe 100kg. And self driving also allows for new configurations, e.g. two seats that face each other because you don't need a steering wheel. That means much more narrow and aerodynamic "micro cars" that could solve a lot of edge cases for people who can't drive or not that long or fast (50kmh / 30mph). They might compete with a big bus. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -5 points 2 years ago (2 children) Except that the jury is not "still out" on number two, it is simply a matter of time, engineering, and training before they are statistically safer than humans. Waymo's cars are already safer than humans in their limited conditions. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) I agree that they're already statistically safer in limited conditions; the key part is when/if they will surpass in a wide range of conditions, including heavy snow or the disorganized and often unmarked roads of developing countries, for instance. For what it's worth, however, I do think the tech will eventually get there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Ignisnex@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Just an observation, humans aren't able to navigate heavy snow and disorganized traffic any better. We guess where the road should be, what the conditions are, and where other cars are, and commit with full confidence in our lack of knowledge. It works OK, but there are infinity examples of it not working. Literally any logic behind navigating these scenarios is better that what we can do with our feeble meat suits. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* My only point is that if I'm being super pessimistic about timescales, I'm estimating ~30years for self driving cars to clearly surpass human drivers, and multiple generations before you eliminate human error from dangerously designed roads, to drunk driving, to distracted driving, to sleepy driving etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -3 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Congratulations that you haven't, that's evidently because youre not in there correcting people when they claim that autonomous cars aren't a solution. As long as cars are on the roads and humans are driving them they will continue to kill and maim people. Autonomous cars are the only remotely viable solution to that. They might not be fully ready for all situations yet, but they will be ready on the scale of a decade or two, whereas reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. No, that's defeatist bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago It's called risk analysis / wisdom / not planning exclusively for the best possible outcome in case the world doesn't go exactly you as you hoped it would. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grue@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) I have literally never seen that argument made. Usually, what I see in those threads are a whole bunch of people arguing that autonomous cars would be some kind of silver-bullet panacea for traffic. Frankly, what you wrote sounds like a strawman misinterpretation of an argument I myself make: I argue that autonomous cars are not a solution, but not "because we’ll just eliminate all cars before they’re ready." They're not a solution simply because they're still cars, and therefore take up the same grossly excessive amount of space as non-autonomous cars do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 13 points 2 years ago (2 children) They’re not a solution simply because they’re still cars, and therefore take up the same grossly excessive amount of space as non-autonomous cars do. Yeah, the only things autonomous cars might reduce are: Parking, but only if we forego our current private ownership model and everyone starts doing self-driving robo-taxis everywhere (unlikely) Road fatalities, but only if the self-driving tech proves statistically better than human drivers in a wide range of conditions (jury is still out) It's the same fundamental problem that electric cars have: geometry. Cars -- even if electric and self-driving -- are simply grossly inefficient at moving people for the amount of land they require: permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Flumpkin@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago The velomobile (electric or manual) is the most efficient transport in energy per mile. You could easily design something like a self driving podbike, maybe a little bigger, weighing maybe 100kg. And self driving also allows for new configurations, e.g. two seats that face each other because you don't need a steering wheel. That means much more narrow and aerodynamic "micro cars" that could solve a lot of edge cases for people who can't drive or not that long or fast (50kmh / 30mph). They might compete with a big bus. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -5 points 2 years ago (2 children) Except that the jury is not "still out" on number two, it is simply a matter of time, engineering, and training before they are statistically safer than humans. Waymo's cars are already safer than humans in their limited conditions. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) I agree that they're already statistically safer in limited conditions; the key part is when/if they will surpass in a wide range of conditions, including heavy snow or the disorganized and often unmarked roads of developing countries, for instance. For what it's worth, however, I do think the tech will eventually get there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Ignisnex@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Just an observation, humans aren't able to navigate heavy snow and disorganized traffic any better. We guess where the road should be, what the conditions are, and where other cars are, and commit with full confidence in our lack of knowledge. It works OK, but there are infinity examples of it not working. Literally any logic behind navigating these scenarios is better that what we can do with our feeble meat suits. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* My only point is that if I'm being super pessimistic about timescales, I'm estimating ~30years for self driving cars to clearly surpass human drivers, and multiple generations before you eliminate human error from dangerously designed roads, to drunk driving, to distracted driving, to sleepy driving etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -3 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Congratulations that you haven't, that's evidently because youre not in there correcting people when they claim that autonomous cars aren't a solution. As long as cars are on the roads and humans are driving them they will continue to kill and maim people. Autonomous cars are the only remotely viable solution to that. They might not be fully ready for all situations yet, but they will be ready on the scale of a decade or two, whereas reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. No, that's defeatist bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago It's called risk analysis / wisdom / not planning exclusively for the best possible outcome in case the world doesn't go exactly you as you hoped it would. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 13 points 2 years ago (2 children) They’re not a solution simply because they’re still cars, and therefore take up the same grossly excessive amount of space as non-autonomous cars do. Yeah, the only things autonomous cars might reduce are: Parking, but only if we forego our current private ownership model and everyone starts doing self-driving robo-taxis everywhere (unlikely) Road fatalities, but only if the self-driving tech proves statistically better than human drivers in a wide range of conditions (jury is still out) It's the same fundamental problem that electric cars have: geometry. Cars -- even if electric and self-driving -- are simply grossly inefficient at moving people for the amount of land they require: permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Flumpkin@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago The velomobile (electric or manual) is the most efficient transport in energy per mile. You could easily design something like a self driving podbike, maybe a little bigger, weighing maybe 100kg. And self driving also allows for new configurations, e.g. two seats that face each other because you don't need a steering wheel. That means much more narrow and aerodynamic "micro cars" that could solve a lot of edge cases for people who can't drive or not that long or fast (50kmh / 30mph). They might compete with a big bus. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -5 points 2 years ago (2 children) Except that the jury is not "still out" on number two, it is simply a matter of time, engineering, and training before they are statistically safer than humans. Waymo's cars are already safer than humans in their limited conditions. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) I agree that they're already statistically safer in limited conditions; the key part is when/if they will surpass in a wide range of conditions, including heavy snow or the disorganized and often unmarked roads of developing countries, for instance. For what it's worth, however, I do think the tech will eventually get there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Ignisnex@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Just an observation, humans aren't able to navigate heavy snow and disorganized traffic any better. We guess where the road should be, what the conditions are, and where other cars are, and commit with full confidence in our lack of knowledge. It works OK, but there are infinity examples of it not working. Literally any logic behind navigating these scenarios is better that what we can do with our feeble meat suits. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* My only point is that if I'm being super pessimistic about timescales, I'm estimating ~30years for self driving cars to clearly surpass human drivers, and multiple generations before you eliminate human error from dangerously designed roads, to drunk driving, to distracted driving, to sleepy driving etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Flumpkin@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago The velomobile (electric or manual) is the most efficient transport in energy per mile. You could easily design something like a self driving podbike, maybe a little bigger, weighing maybe 100kg. And self driving also allows for new configurations, e.g. two seats that face each other because you don't need a steering wheel. That means much more narrow and aerodynamic "micro cars" that could solve a lot of edge cases for people who can't drive or not that long or fast (50kmh / 30mph). They might compete with a big bus. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -5 points 2 years ago (2 children) Except that the jury is not "still out" on number two, it is simply a matter of time, engineering, and training before they are statistically safer than humans. Waymo's cars are already safer than humans in their limited conditions. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) I agree that they're already statistically safer in limited conditions; the key part is when/if they will surpass in a wide range of conditions, including heavy snow or the disorganized and often unmarked roads of developing countries, for instance. For what it's worth, however, I do think the tech will eventually get there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Ignisnex@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Just an observation, humans aren't able to navigate heavy snow and disorganized traffic any better. We guess where the road should be, what the conditions are, and where other cars are, and commit with full confidence in our lack of knowledge. It works OK, but there are infinity examples of it not working. Literally any logic behind navigating these scenarios is better that what we can do with our feeble meat suits. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* My only point is that if I'm being super pessimistic about timescales, I'm estimating ~30years for self driving cars to clearly surpass human drivers, and multiple generations before you eliminate human error from dangerously designed roads, to drunk driving, to distracted driving, to sleepy driving etc. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world [S] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) I agree that they're already statistically safer in limited conditions; the key part is when/if they will surpass in a wide range of conditions, including heavy snow or the disorganized and often unmarked roads of developing countries, for instance. For what it's worth, however, I do think the tech will eventually get there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Ignisnex@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Just an observation, humans aren't able to navigate heavy snow and disorganized traffic any better. We guess where the road should be, what the conditions are, and where other cars are, and commit with full confidence in our lack of knowledge. It works OK, but there are infinity examples of it not working. Literally any logic behind navigating these scenarios is better that what we can do with our feeble meat suits. permalink fedilink source parent [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* My only point is that if I'm being super pessimistic about timescales, I'm estimating ~30years for self driving cars to clearly surpass human drivers, and multiple generations before you eliminate human error from dangerously designed roads, to drunk driving, to distracted driving, to sleepy driving etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Ignisnex@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Just an observation, humans aren't able to navigate heavy snow and disorganized traffic any better. We guess where the road should be, what the conditions are, and where other cars are, and commit with full confidence in our lack of knowledge. It works OK, but there are infinity examples of it not working. Literally any logic behind navigating these scenarios is better that what we can do with our feeble meat suits. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 point 2 years ago* My only point is that if I'm being super pessimistic about timescales, I'm estimating ~30years for self driving cars to clearly surpass human drivers, and multiple generations before you eliminate human error from dangerously designed roads, to drunk driving, to distracted driving, to sleepy driving etc. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca -3 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Congratulations that you haven't, that's evidently because youre not in there correcting people when they claim that autonomous cars aren't a solution. As long as cars are on the roads and humans are driving them they will continue to kill and maim people. Autonomous cars are the only remotely viable solution to that. They might not be fully ready for all situations yet, but they will be ready on the scale of a decade or two, whereas reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. No, that's defeatist bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago It's called risk analysis / wisdom / not planning exclusively for the best possible outcome in case the world doesn't go exactly you as you hoped it would. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grue@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) reorienting north American society to minimize human drivers (get everyone to move out of their homes in the suburbs and country) will take literally generations. No, that's defeatist bullshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago It's called risk analysis / wisdom / not planning exclusively for the best possible outcome in case the world doesn't go exactly you as you hoped it would. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago It's called risk analysis / wisdom / not planning exclusively for the best possible outcome in case the world doesn't go exactly you as you hoped it would. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago Your failure to provide a reliable source for your claims is not my problem. If you cannot provide a reliable source of your claims, your claim will be dismissed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] derf82@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I mean, y’all literally call the place “fuck cars.” You call anyone that disagrees with you a “car-brain.” Not a lot of nuance. As someone scrolling by from all, I’m actually surprised to see any acknowledgement that some people may need to rely on private automobiles. Maybe y’all need to work on your messaging. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FarceOfWill@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago Messaging is for urbanist and transport subs, this is a place to bellow "fuck cars" until your voice is hoarse. If you do want a serious discussion of posting here is just going to frustrate you and give you a very weird idea of the movement. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FarceOfWill@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago Messaging is for urbanist and transport subs, this is a place to bellow "fuck cars" until your voice is hoarse. If you do want a serious discussion of posting here is just going to frustrate you and give you a very weird idea of the movement. permalink fedilink source parent
