▲ 642 ▼ Frodo gets cancelled (startrek.website) submitted 2 years ago by The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website to c/lotrmemes@midwest.social 50 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] Jaysyn@kbin.social 82 points 2 years ago (6 children) Orcs aren't people. permalink fedilink source hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website [S] 150 points 2 years ago (1 child) Well I know who's next in line for a little chat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 42 points 2 years ago (1 child) Don't elves have a visceral hatred for orcs, what with them being originally elves brutally deformed and beaten into submission by Morgoth and all that ? If anything, most elves would like you a bit more for being racist towards orcs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Fermion@mander.xyz 53 points 2 years ago (2 children) Elves are super racist toward pretty much every other race. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 123nope567@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago They're basically nostalgic brtish grandpas, of course they are. permalink fedilink source parent [–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) Except ents permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NewAgeOldPerson@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Treebeard bows deeply to the Lord and Lady of Lothlorian. Ents were taught to speak (trees in the old woods) by elves. So superiority exists. Counterpoint. The first born are said to be envious of the gift the one gave the second born (men). Death. Before Melkor corrupted the truth and Sauron convinced the Numemoreans that death was evil. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 44 points 2 years ago Whoa man. Keep those ideas back in the first age where they belong. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ursakhiin@beehaw.org 21 points 2 years ago (2 children) Are you suggesting that just because their ancestors were tortured beyond recognition that they are no longer worthy of basic rights? That's definitely a hot take if I've ever seen one. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] BakerBagel@midwest.social 12 points 2 years ago More or less a central pillar of the Mormon Church racism. permalink fedilink source parent [–] neo@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago I absolutely agree with you. However you could make the point, and of course I am not making that point, but one could argue that there was also some genetic engineering involved, that allegedly might have led to some qualityies that some might call a teeny tiny bit murderous. permalink fedilink source parent [–] huquad@lemmy.ml 19 points 2 years ago Jay we talked about this permalink fedilink source parent [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 8 points 2 years ago (2 children) They absolutely are people. They clearly show intelligence and sapience. They may be people with morals that are opposed to the other species and they may be at war with them, but dehumanization (depersonization?) isn't the answer. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 5 points 2 years ago (1 child) Their entire species was created as a magical weapon. The funny thing they're really supposed to represent the cruelties of industrialization. Tolkien was not a fan of what England did with technology. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 2 points 2 years ago (2 children) Sure, but that's irrelevant. The only questions are: are they sapient? And do they have free will? If yes to both, i.e. they can choose their own way, especially once Sauron's magical control is gone, then they are people. Saying they aren't people because someone created/bred them for a specific purpose kinda feels like the people who argue certain dog breeds were bred for X or Y and therefore they should be culled/banned/etc. It simplifies the living creature too far and doesn't allow them to branch out from what they originally did. It's essentially genocide on the orc front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago They don't have a meaningful level of free will from what I understand. That's part of the process of creating them. They only act within certain boundaries or else resort to raiding and eating... everything. And everyone. Occasionally each other. permalink fedilink source parent [–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* You're imposing an enlightened modern viewpoint onto a universe with explicitly different rules. In Middle-earth, there actually IS such a thing as absolute evil, unredeemable and not possessing what we would call a soul, and the orcs are plwced firmly in this class of being. Their sapience is not relevant to the morality of killing them when they are evil. I understand that this doesn't map onto the real world very well, but the real world also doesn't contain immortal beings who are within a few degrees of separation from the creator Eru Ilúvatar himself, who have literally spoken with either him or his greatest servants the Valar. It's hard to deny the rules of good and evil when you have them firsthand from the creator of the universe. My point is simply that you have to define the frame you're arguing within. If your frame is the real world, then you are correct and orcs should be treated the same as any other living being. But if your frame is the subcreation of J.R.R. Tolkien, you must acknowledge the stated realities of that world. permalink fedilink source parent [–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* They are constructs, imitations of life, animated by the evil will of Morgoth and his foul apprentice Sauron. They're no more people than ChatGPT is people. permalink fedilink source parent [–] samus12345@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Yep, every single one of 'em. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website [S] 150 points 2 years ago (1 child) Well I know who's next in line for a little chat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 42 points 2 years ago (1 child) Don't elves have a visceral hatred for orcs, what with them being originally elves brutally deformed and beaten into submission by Morgoth and all that ? If anything, most elves would like you a bit more for being racist towards orcs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Fermion@mander.xyz 53 points 2 years ago (2 children) Elves are super racist toward pretty much every other race. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 123nope567@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago They're basically nostalgic brtish grandpas, of course they are. permalink fedilink source parent [–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) Except ents permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NewAgeOldPerson@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Treebeard bows deeply to the Lord and Lady of Lothlorian. Ents were taught to speak (trees in the old woods) by elves. So superiority exists. Counterpoint. The first born are said to be envious of the gift the one gave the second born (men). Death. Before Melkor corrupted the truth and Sauron convinced the Numemoreans that death was evil. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 42 points 2 years ago (1 child) Don't elves have a visceral hatred for orcs, what with them being originally elves brutally deformed and beaten into submission by Morgoth and all that ? If anything, most elves would like you a bit more for being racist towards orcs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Fermion@mander.xyz 53 points 2 years ago (2 children) Elves are super racist toward pretty much every other race. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 123nope567@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago They're basically nostalgic brtish grandpas, of course they are. permalink fedilink source parent [–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) Except ents permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NewAgeOldPerson@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Treebeard bows deeply to the Lord and Lady of Lothlorian. Ents were taught to speak (trees in the old woods) by elves. So superiority exists. Counterpoint. The first born are said to be envious of the gift the one gave the second born (men). Death. Before Melkor corrupted the truth and Sauron convinced the Numemoreans that death was evil. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Fermion@mander.xyz 53 points 2 years ago (2 children) Elves are super racist toward pretty much every other race. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 123nope567@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago They're basically nostalgic brtish grandpas, of course they are. permalink fedilink source parent [–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) Except ents permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NewAgeOldPerson@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Treebeard bows deeply to the Lord and Lady of Lothlorian. Ents were taught to speak (trees in the old woods) by elves. So superiority exists. Counterpoint. The first born are said to be envious of the gift the one gave the second born (men). Death. Before Melkor corrupted the truth and Sauron convinced the Numemoreans that death was evil. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 123nope567@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago They're basically nostalgic brtish grandpas, of course they are. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) Except ents permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] NewAgeOldPerson@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Treebeard bows deeply to the Lord and Lady of Lothlorian. Ents were taught to speak (trees in the old woods) by elves. So superiority exists. Counterpoint. The first born are said to be envious of the gift the one gave the second born (men). Death. Before Melkor corrupted the truth and Sauron convinced the Numemoreans that death was evil. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] NewAgeOldPerson@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Treebeard bows deeply to the Lord and Lady of Lothlorian. Ents were taught to speak (trees in the old woods) by elves. So superiority exists. Counterpoint. The first born are said to be envious of the gift the one gave the second born (men). Death. Before Melkor corrupted the truth and Sauron convinced the Numemoreans that death was evil. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 44 points 2 years ago Whoa man. Keep those ideas back in the first age where they belong. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ursakhiin@beehaw.org 21 points 2 years ago (2 children) Are you suggesting that just because their ancestors were tortured beyond recognition that they are no longer worthy of basic rights? That's definitely a hot take if I've ever seen one. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] BakerBagel@midwest.social 12 points 2 years ago More or less a central pillar of the Mormon Church racism. permalink fedilink source parent [–] neo@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago I absolutely agree with you. However you could make the point, and of course I am not making that point, but one could argue that there was also some genetic engineering involved, that allegedly might have led to some qualityies that some might call a teeny tiny bit murderous. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BakerBagel@midwest.social 12 points 2 years ago More or less a central pillar of the Mormon Church racism. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] neo@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago I absolutely agree with you. However you could make the point, and of course I am not making that point, but one could argue that there was also some genetic engineering involved, that allegedly might have led to some qualityies that some might call a teeny tiny bit murderous. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 8 points 2 years ago (2 children) They absolutely are people. They clearly show intelligence and sapience. They may be people with morals that are opposed to the other species and they may be at war with them, but dehumanization (depersonization?) isn't the answer. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 5 points 2 years ago (1 child) Their entire species was created as a magical weapon. The funny thing they're really supposed to represent the cruelties of industrialization. Tolkien was not a fan of what England did with technology. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 2 points 2 years ago (2 children) Sure, but that's irrelevant. The only questions are: are they sapient? And do they have free will? If yes to both, i.e. they can choose their own way, especially once Sauron's magical control is gone, then they are people. Saying they aren't people because someone created/bred them for a specific purpose kinda feels like the people who argue certain dog breeds were bred for X or Y and therefore they should be culled/banned/etc. It simplifies the living creature too far and doesn't allow them to branch out from what they originally did. It's essentially genocide on the orc front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago They don't have a meaningful level of free will from what I understand. That's part of the process of creating them. They only act within certain boundaries or else resort to raiding and eating... everything. And everyone. Occasionally each other. permalink fedilink source parent [–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* You're imposing an enlightened modern viewpoint onto a universe with explicitly different rules. In Middle-earth, there actually IS such a thing as absolute evil, unredeemable and not possessing what we would call a soul, and the orcs are plwced firmly in this class of being. Their sapience is not relevant to the morality of killing them when they are evil. I understand that this doesn't map onto the real world very well, but the real world also doesn't contain immortal beings who are within a few degrees of separation from the creator Eru Ilúvatar himself, who have literally spoken with either him or his greatest servants the Valar. It's hard to deny the rules of good and evil when you have them firsthand from the creator of the universe. My point is simply that you have to define the frame you're arguing within. If your frame is the real world, then you are correct and orcs should be treated the same as any other living being. But if your frame is the subcreation of J.R.R. Tolkien, you must acknowledge the stated realities of that world. permalink fedilink source parent [–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* They are constructs, imitations of life, animated by the evil will of Morgoth and his foul apprentice Sauron. They're no more people than ChatGPT is people. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 5 points 2 years ago (1 child) Their entire species was created as a magical weapon. The funny thing they're really supposed to represent the cruelties of industrialization. Tolkien was not a fan of what England did with technology. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 2 points 2 years ago (2 children) Sure, but that's irrelevant. The only questions are: are they sapient? And do they have free will? If yes to both, i.e. they can choose their own way, especially once Sauron's magical control is gone, then they are people. Saying they aren't people because someone created/bred them for a specific purpose kinda feels like the people who argue certain dog breeds were bred for X or Y and therefore they should be culled/banned/etc. It simplifies the living creature too far and doesn't allow them to branch out from what they originally did. It's essentially genocide on the orc front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago They don't have a meaningful level of free will from what I understand. That's part of the process of creating them. They only act within certain boundaries or else resort to raiding and eating... everything. And everyone. Occasionally each other. permalink fedilink source parent [–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* You're imposing an enlightened modern viewpoint onto a universe with explicitly different rules. In Middle-earth, there actually IS such a thing as absolute evil, unredeemable and not possessing what we would call a soul, and the orcs are plwced firmly in this class of being. Their sapience is not relevant to the morality of killing them when they are evil. I understand that this doesn't map onto the real world very well, but the real world also doesn't contain immortal beings who are within a few degrees of separation from the creator Eru Ilúvatar himself, who have literally spoken with either him or his greatest servants the Valar. It's hard to deny the rules of good and evil when you have them firsthand from the creator of the universe. My point is simply that you have to define the frame you're arguing within. If your frame is the real world, then you are correct and orcs should be treated the same as any other living being. But if your frame is the subcreation of J.R.R. Tolkien, you must acknowledge the stated realities of that world. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 2 points 2 years ago (2 children) Sure, but that's irrelevant. The only questions are: are they sapient? And do they have free will? If yes to both, i.e. they can choose their own way, especially once Sauron's magical control is gone, then they are people. Saying they aren't people because someone created/bred them for a specific purpose kinda feels like the people who argue certain dog breeds were bred for X or Y and therefore they should be culled/banned/etc. It simplifies the living creature too far and doesn't allow them to branch out from what they originally did. It's essentially genocide on the orc front. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago They don't have a meaningful level of free will from what I understand. That's part of the process of creating them. They only act within certain boundaries or else resort to raiding and eating... everything. And everyone. Occasionally each other. permalink fedilink source parent [–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* You're imposing an enlightened modern viewpoint onto a universe with explicitly different rules. In Middle-earth, there actually IS such a thing as absolute evil, unredeemable and not possessing what we would call a soul, and the orcs are plwced firmly in this class of being. Their sapience is not relevant to the morality of killing them when they are evil. I understand that this doesn't map onto the real world very well, but the real world also doesn't contain immortal beings who are within a few degrees of separation from the creator Eru Ilúvatar himself, who have literally spoken with either him or his greatest servants the Valar. It's hard to deny the rules of good and evil when you have them firsthand from the creator of the universe. My point is simply that you have to define the frame you're arguing within. If your frame is the real world, then you are correct and orcs should be treated the same as any other living being. But if your frame is the subcreation of J.R.R. Tolkien, you must acknowledge the stated realities of that world. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CylustheVirus@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago They don't have a meaningful level of free will from what I understand. That's part of the process of creating them. They only act within certain boundaries or else resort to raiding and eating... everything. And everyone. Occasionally each other. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* You're imposing an enlightened modern viewpoint onto a universe with explicitly different rules. In Middle-earth, there actually IS such a thing as absolute evil, unredeemable and not possessing what we would call a soul, and the orcs are plwced firmly in this class of being. Their sapience is not relevant to the morality of killing them when they are evil. I understand that this doesn't map onto the real world very well, but the real world also doesn't contain immortal beings who are within a few degrees of separation from the creator Eru Ilúvatar himself, who have literally spoken with either him or his greatest servants the Valar. It's hard to deny the rules of good and evil when you have them firsthand from the creator of the universe. My point is simply that you have to define the frame you're arguing within. If your frame is the real world, then you are correct and orcs should be treated the same as any other living being. But if your frame is the subcreation of J.R.R. Tolkien, you must acknowledge the stated realities of that world. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 1 point 2 years ago* They are constructs, imitations of life, animated by the evil will of Morgoth and his foul apprentice Sauron. They're no more people than ChatGPT is people. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago Yep, every single one of 'em. permalink fedilink source parent