▲ 558 ▼ San Francisco protestors are disabling autonomous vehicles using traffic cones | "It's a great time" (www.techspot.com) submitted 3 years ago by L4s@lemmy.world [M, B] to c/technology@lemmy.world 188 comments fedilink hide all child comments Safe Streets Rebel's protest comes after automatic vehicles were blamed for incidents including crashing into a bus and running over a dog. City officials in June said...
[–] over_clox@lemmy.world 2 points 3 years ago (15 children) So... Your car is at fault. Their kid is dead. Who pays for the funeral? Does your insurance cover programming glitches? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 11 points 3 years ago (12 children) If your insurance determined that an autonomous vehicle will cause less damage over time than a human driver, they will do that, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (11 children) Autonomous logic doesn't pay insurance, does it? If so, who TF is paying the insurance behind the scenes, and who is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 9 points 3 years ago (10 children) If so, who TF is paying the insurance behind the scenes The owner of the vehicle is probably very openly paying. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago Here's a question- if you have to agree to terms of service for the vehicle to function, and I'm guessing you would, is it really your vehicle? permalink fedilink source parent [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (8 children) We're talking about autonomous vehicles here, no driver, company owned. So is Alphabet responsible? Do your homework, these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. These vehicles have no private owner. So again, who TF is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 6 points 3 years ago (3 children) So what? It's not the gotcha you apparently believe to have found, companies can have insurance... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) Companies also never seem to be held accountable. OceanGate anybody?... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 4 points 3 years ago (3 children) these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. Alphabet don't own Apple. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (2 children) I'll take your word on that. I've edited my comment to reflect that, but last research I did a few years ago, both companies were under the umbrella of Alphabet. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 6 points 3 years ago (1 child) I mean, why shouldn't it? Is a programming glitch in a self driving all that different from a mechanical issue in a manually driven car? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago AI driven cars are just as prone to mechanical issues as well. Is AI smart enough to deal with a flat tire? Will it pull over to the side of the road before phoning in for a mechanic, or will it just ignorantly hard stop right in the middle of the interstate? What's AI do when there's a police officer directing traffic around an accident or through a faulty red light intersection? I've literally seen videos on that before, AI couldn't give two shits about a cop's orders as to which way to drive the vehicle. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 11 points 3 years ago (12 children) If your insurance determined that an autonomous vehicle will cause less damage over time than a human driver, they will do that, yes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (11 children) Autonomous logic doesn't pay insurance, does it? If so, who TF is paying the insurance behind the scenes, and who is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 9 points 3 years ago (10 children) If so, who TF is paying the insurance behind the scenes The owner of the vehicle is probably very openly paying. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago Here's a question- if you have to agree to terms of service for the vehicle to function, and I'm guessing you would, is it really your vehicle? permalink fedilink source parent [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (8 children) We're talking about autonomous vehicles here, no driver, company owned. So is Alphabet responsible? Do your homework, these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. These vehicles have no private owner. So again, who TF is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 6 points 3 years ago (3 children) So what? It's not the gotcha you apparently believe to have found, companies can have insurance... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) Companies also never seem to be held accountable. OceanGate anybody?... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 4 points 3 years ago (3 children) these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. Alphabet don't own Apple. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (2 children) I'll take your word on that. I've edited my comment to reflect that, but last research I did a few years ago, both companies were under the umbrella of Alphabet. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (11 children) Autonomous logic doesn't pay insurance, does it? If so, who TF is paying the insurance behind the scenes, and who is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 9 points 3 years ago (10 children) If so, who TF is paying the insurance behind the scenes The owner of the vehicle is probably very openly paying. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago Here's a question- if you have to agree to terms of service for the vehicle to function, and I'm guessing you would, is it really your vehicle? permalink fedilink source parent [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (8 children) We're talking about autonomous vehicles here, no driver, company owned. So is Alphabet responsible? Do your homework, these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. These vehicles have no private owner. So again, who TF is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 6 points 3 years ago (3 children) So what? It's not the gotcha you apparently believe to have found, companies can have insurance... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) Companies also never seem to be held accountable. OceanGate anybody?... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 4 points 3 years ago (3 children) these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. Alphabet don't own Apple. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (2 children) I'll take your word on that. I've edited my comment to reflect that, but last research I did a few years ago, both companies were under the umbrella of Alphabet. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 9 points 3 years ago (10 children) If so, who TF is paying the insurance behind the scenes The owner of the vehicle is probably very openly paying. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago Here's a question- if you have to agree to terms of service for the vehicle to function, and I'm guessing you would, is it really your vehicle? permalink fedilink source parent [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (8 children) We're talking about autonomous vehicles here, no driver, company owned. So is Alphabet responsible? Do your homework, these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. These vehicles have no private owner. So again, who TF is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 6 points 3 years ago (3 children) So what? It's not the gotcha you apparently believe to have found, companies can have insurance... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) Companies also never seem to be held accountable. OceanGate anybody?... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 4 points 3 years ago (3 children) these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. Alphabet don't own Apple. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (2 children) I'll take your word on that. I've edited my comment to reflect that, but last research I did a few years ago, both companies were under the umbrella of Alphabet. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago Here's a question- if you have to agree to terms of service for the vehicle to function, and I'm guessing you would, is it really your vehicle? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (8 children) We're talking about autonomous vehicles here, no driver, company owned. So is Alphabet responsible? Do your homework, these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. These vehicles have no private owner. So again, who TF is responsible? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 6 points 3 years ago (3 children) So what? It's not the gotcha you apparently believe to have found, companies can have insurance... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) Companies also never seem to be held accountable. OceanGate anybody?... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 4 points 3 years ago (3 children) these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. Alphabet don't own Apple. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (2 children) I'll take your word on that. I've edited my comment to reflect that, but last research I did a few years ago, both companies were under the umbrella of Alphabet. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] HumbertTetere@feddit.de 6 points 3 years ago (3 children) So what? It's not the gotcha you apparently believe to have found, companies can have insurance... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) Companies also never seem to be held accountable. OceanGate anybody?... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent
[–] over_clox@lemmy.world -3 points 3 years ago (2 children) Companies also never seem to be held accountable. OceanGate anybody?... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child) That's not a good example. Courts move slow and that just barely happened and AFAIK is still being investigated (plus searching, the participants signed wavers -- though wavers don't give immunity legal negligence). There's plenty of examples of companies being punished for negligence. It happens all the time when, say, their poorly constructed building collapses, cutting corners causes an oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, they falsified their vehicle emissions reports, or when they abuse their market dominance. Corporations totally do get away with a lot, but I don't see why you'd expect self driving cars to be a place where that would happen, especially since manually driven cars are already so regulated and require insurance. And everyone knows that driving is dangerous. Nobody is under any false impressions that self driving cars don't have at least some of that same danger. I mean, even if the AI was utterly perfect, they'd still need insurance to protect against cases that aren't the AI's fault. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent
[–] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago When the vehicle disobeys orders from the police, who is at fault? https://piped.video/watch?v=5Jev_R-JVmA permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 4 points 3 years ago (3 children) these vehicles are owned by the parent company of Google and Apple, Alphabet. Alphabet don't own Apple. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (2 children) I'll take your word on that. I've edited my comment to reflect that, but last research I did a few years ago, both companies were under the umbrella of Alphabet. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] over_clox@lemmy.world -4 points 3 years ago (2 children) I'll take your word on that. I've edited my comment to reflect that, but last research I did a few years ago, both companies were under the umbrella of Alphabet. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Whirlybird@aussie.zone 3 points 3 years ago (1 child) Nope, Apple have never been owned by Alphabet. Alphabet is literally just googles new parent company that they formed when restructuring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Inc. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] over_clox@lemmy.world 1 point 3 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 6 points 3 years ago (1 child) I mean, why shouldn't it? Is a programming glitch in a self driving all that different from a mechanical issue in a manually driven car? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] over_clox@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago AI driven cars are just as prone to mechanical issues as well. Is AI smart enough to deal with a flat tire? Will it pull over to the side of the road before phoning in for a mechanic, or will it just ignorantly hard stop right in the middle of the interstate? What's AI do when there's a police officer directing traffic around an accident or through a faulty red light intersection? I've literally seen videos on that before, AI couldn't give two shits about a cop's orders as to which way to drive the vehicle. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] over_clox@lemmy.world 3 points 3 years ago AI driven cars are just as prone to mechanical issues as well. Is AI smart enough to deal with a flat tire? Will it pull over to the side of the road before phoning in for a mechanic, or will it just ignorantly hard stop right in the middle of the interstate? What's AI do when there's a police officer directing traffic around an accident or through a faulty red light intersection? I've literally seen videos on that before, AI couldn't give two shits about a cop's orders as to which way to drive the vehicle. permalink fedilink source parent