New fuel-economy standards, which President Trump said he finalized Saturday, would kill a federal effort to speed the transition to electric vehicles.

Electricification is the one thing that could make the price of gas irrelevant for Americans

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[–] 9 points 1 day ago (11 children)

Heavier cars wear down roads slightly more, so from a road perspective weight matters more than fuel economy. From en environmental perspective both matter as tire wear is a major source of microplastic pollution.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 day ago* (10 children)

    Not slightly more, the calculation on axle load has it hypercubed ie raised to the 4th power. Basically double the weight == 16 times the damage

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  • [–] 10 points 1 day ago* (3 children)

    I found that very interesting, so I did a little research, and yeah, it’s called the “fourth power law”, which is used to compare road wear between two vehicles. The strength of the road does pretty drastically change how closely the “rule” applies, but it does seem to be a decent rule of thumb for common paved secondary roads. For anybody reading, it’s based on axle loading. So if we assume a 50/50 weight balance on a standard 2-axle vehicle, its axle loading is half the vehicle weight. The difference in road wear can be calculated as

    ([Greater Axle Load]/[Lesser Axle Load])^4^

    So if you compare a Hummer EV at roughly 10,000lbs, so 5,000lb axle loading, to a 1st gen Miata at about 2,000lbs, or 1,000lb axle load, the Miata would have to drive down a road 625 times to do a similar amount of damage as the Hummer driving down it once. That is a fairly extreme example, but you get the idea.

    Source 1

    Source 2

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  • [–] 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    So at what point is highway maintenance more expensive than a railroad?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

    Whenever oil producers and auto manufacturers can’t pay off politicians anymore

    But more seriously, more money goes into road maintenance than rail maintenance even in the EU, which has way more rail than the US. And while I’m a big fan of trains for transportation, cars still make a lot of sense for a lot of people across the US. Trains are great for connecting population dense areas to each other. The US has a heck of a lot of “middle of nowhere”, that’s way too far from urban areas for it to be reasonable to build rail to, to be reasonable to ride a bike to the nearest town that has a station, or even have a bus route that would be going by.

    In my dream world we would convert pretty much all the 4-lane roads in the US into 2 lanes of car traffic on the inside, with narrower lanes on the outside for bikes and scooters and whatever other small slow things on wheels, and light rail either on one side or what is now the median. I figure if it’s worth having 4 lanes, it’s probably worth having light rail.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (5 children)

    Which is the thing people don't get about higher registration fees on electric vehicles and why they may be necessary (sort of). Tax on fuel paid at the pump funds roads, but since EVs aren't buying fuel and weigh as much or more they should probably pay something towards road maintenance. Assuming keep the current funding model, which I'm not convinced is the best model.

    I'm fairly pro EV and most taxes like fuel tax have always felt a little regressive even if I'm able to pay for it just fine. I don't know what the actual answer is, but it does seem like the short fall could likely be generated by better taxing wealthy corporations and improving public transportation.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (4 children)

    It seems to me that registration should be the point where a vehicle owner has to pay for public road usage. Some vehicles that need gas/diesel aren't registered for public road usage (e.g. farm equipment), and some vehicles which don't need gas/diesel are registered for public road usage (e.g. EVs). Therefore gas taxes are misaligned, but registration is by definition aligned with public road usage.

    The only thing you lose out on is the fuel economy heuristic that bigger/heavier vehicles cost more to fuel (there's some physics to back it up: heavier vehicles take more absolute energy to accelerate up to a given speed, and an ICE only converts energy one way -- potential to kinetic -- so it's all eventually lost to heat via the brakes), therefore they'll pay more in taxes. But adding any kind of electrification into the mix (BEV, PHEV, or mild HEV) invalidates the physics behind the heuristic (electric motors can recover kinetic energy), thus the gas tax is supremely irrelevant and we instead need a different mechanism for funding roadways.

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  • [–] 1 point 22 hours ago (3 children)

    I could see a scenario where if we get to a point where a super majority of vehicles on the roadways are electric then the fuel tax is shifted over to a tax on electricity which does address some of the usage issues with a registration based tax. It also helps with location of usage a little more too since just because the vehicle was registered in one state doesn't mean it was used the most in that state.

    I'm well aware we have the technology to determine exactly where and how much every vehicle is being used, but I'm not terribly interested in giving many, if any, of the current governments of the world that ability.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 hours ago* (2 children)

    Bear with my ignorance, but what are the issues you see with registration-based usage taxes?

    Electric usage tax has the same problem as a gas tax in that it's decoupled from actual public road usage.

    edit: hit "send" before actually done writing... Whoops.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 hours ago (1 child)

    Are you registering miles per year on roads as well?

    Why would someone who drives 10 miles a day past the same massive registration cost as someone who drives 100 or 500 miles per day?

    That's why it's tied to gas atm. The higher usage the more you pay.

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  • [–] 1 point 36 minutes ago

    Sorry, I missed the point where registration includes odometer readings. Sure, it's possible that someone could be driving 10k miles off-road and 100 miles on-road, thereby paying for more than they're using, but it seems quite niche and less complicated a trade-off (and much less tied to fossil fuels) than gas tax.

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